0:00 This 100% was a cult. Copy link
0:03 That was the first moment where I heard, I hate you. Copy link
0:06 I remember snapping a photo and then saying to myself, I will never feel this way again. Copy link
0:12 And I hear again, I hate you. Copy link
0:14 And at this point, I'm like, what the fuck? Copy link
0:17 Feel the fear and do it anyways. Copy link
0:19 I'm like cursing the water. Copy link
0:21 I'm like hitting the water. Copy link
0:22 And I say, I don't want to go. Copy link
0:25 It was a booming voice that says, you have to go. Copy link
0:29 you have to go. I describe it as it felt like every day was Christmas. Alone time was actually Copy link
0:35 really frowned upon in the community. This is where I started to hear these whispers of you need to Copy link
0:43 leave, it's time to go, this doesn't feel right. It already happened a second time so the third Copy link
0:49 time is clearly saying that something is wrong here. Copy link
0:58 I'm Abbas and this is Delvedel Podcast. Copy link
1:01 Conversations about the stories we live but rarely tell. Copy link
1:05 What does it actually take to love yourself? Copy link
1:08 And what happens when someone offers to sell that back to you? Copy link
1:13 Jissy Bax built the body, the business and the big day career that we're supposed to fix. Copy link
1:19 Then, Demir said, I hate you. Copy link
1:23 A second time, in the fittest body of her life. Copy link
1:27 She then sold everything to go to Bali. Copy link
1:30 She followed a voice that said, you have to go into a community in the Netherlands. Copy link
1:37 And three months later, she walked out of what she now calls a cult. Copy link
1:42 This is a conversation about going inward, about losing yourself, and about coming home to yourself. Copy link
1:51 This is our conversation. Copy link
1:54 Jessie Bax, welcome to the fourth episode of Delva Del podcast. Copy link
1:59 I'm so excited to be here. So honored. Copy link
2:02 Thank you for coming here. Copy link
2:05 Let's start with this scene that you describe in your Substack post. Copy link
2:11 It's 2024. You are living in this intentional community in the Netherlands. Copy link
2:18 You are standing in front of a mirror. Copy link
2:22 What is alive in that moment? Take me there. Copy link
2:26 Yeah, I feel myself like immediately transported back there when you mentioned the mirror. Copy link
2:32 And it's interesting, the Substack posts that you reference, I'm like seeing all the moments in which I stared myself in the mirror in the Netherlands, in that community. Copy link
2:45 And what comes alive for me when I'm looking at myself in that mirror and I'm seeing myself look back. Copy link
2:51 Yeah, I feel like a little bit of emptiness. I feel a bit of fear. Like, what am I doing here? What is happening? Copy link
3:01 I start there because I think that was one of the pivotal moments in your life as I was going through, you know, your YouTube channel, your sub stack. Copy link
3:12 I mean, we've been friends for a few years now and I learned a ton as I was researching on this. Copy link
3:20 Let's go back to your earlier childhood time. Copy link
3:25 You are 15 years old. Copy link
3:27 You're in Missouri living your life in high school. Copy link
3:31 Take me there. Copy link
3:33 Who was Jesse at the time? Copy link
3:36 And yeah, what was life like in Missouri at that time? Copy link
3:41 Wow. Copy link
3:43 15-year-old Jesse, high school, Missouri. Copy link
3:49 yeah I see myself walking down the halls of my high school and like a lot of insecurities Copy link
3:57 like wanting to be liked wanting people to think that I was cool and pretty and Copy link
4:04 yeah like a lot of like confidence that I hadn't tapped into yet like was I was seeing a part of Copy link
4:11 me like, oh, what's possible? And also the insecurities that were ruling my world and Copy link
4:17 noticing how in which I was acting in my reality. And when I was 15, like going back to that moment, Copy link
4:25 walking down those is like, how do people think about me? What are they going to think? What are Copy link
4:29 they going to say? Like, what are their stories about me? That's actually like, it was more, Copy link
4:34 I was so much more curious about what they thought about me than what I thought about myself. Copy link
4:41 yeah and what was like you were into basketball from what I read what were your your hobbies yeah Copy link
4:49 yeah I kind of want to know who was Jesse at the time compared to this person that is sitting Copy link
4:55 in front of me and the Jesse that I know yeah I so 15 I was maybe I guess freshman sophomore Copy link
5:05 I did three sports softball basketball soccer and like so I was an athlete I uh was also in a Copy link
5:15 relationship um like yeah I I find the 15 year old Jesse to now I'm almost 32 so I'm a month away Copy link
5:24 from being 32 like she uh yeah I I find myself like asking even now in this moment of like wow Copy link
5:32 the 15 year old me, who really was I in that moment, like really figuring myself out. But I Copy link
5:37 think sports was like the way in which that I like showed up into the world and like in a way, maybe Copy link
5:41 like proved myself of like, like, look at, uh, look at me. Like I can, I'm, I'm capable because Copy link
5:48 I felt really, really good at sports when I was younger. Let's jump forward five years Copy link
5:54 to what I call the first mirror that you mentioned in your sub stack. And that is Copy link
6:05 when you were 20 years old, I believe. Do you remember that moment? Take me there. Copy link
6:09 Yeah. Yeah. I remember it so clearly. It was December 28th of 2014. And I was Copy link
6:22 living in Edwardsville, Illinois. And at this moment, I just transferred schools six months Copy link
6:29 prior from Mizzou. And I knew that there was like, there were, there was a lot of things I was doing Copy link
6:35 that didn't feel good. And I knew I needed to make a change, but it wasn't until that moment Copy link
6:40 on December 28th, where I looked myself in the mirror and I was wearing this leopard bra and, uh, Copy link
6:47 a brown thong that my grandma bought me when I was in the seventh grade, Copy link
6:52 which I was so shocked that it still fit me. Copy link
6:55 And the reflection that I saw back, not just like my body, Copy link
6:59 but also the room around me, just a total mess. Copy link
7:03 That was the first moment where I heard, I hate you. Copy link
7:08 And it just completely shocked me and put me in a place that I never thought I would be in. Copy link
7:15 I was like, I hate myself. Copy link
7:17 And I remember snapping a photo and then saying to myself, I will never feel this way again. Copy link
7:25 Yeah. And you're I guess at this point, your fitness journey started, right? Copy link
7:34 To the extent that in 2014 in December, you started this journey and then two years later, you started your own fitness coaching business. Copy link
7:45 How was that like to take me to that journey from being, you know, not necessarily happy with the way you found yourself in this world and you looked and until the point that you were feeling good enough and ready to lead this successful business? Copy link
8:04 Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I see it as like it kind of just happened where like three days later after I snapped that photo, it was now the first of the year 2015 and spring break was three months after. And I was like, OK, it's that new year, new me. I'm going to like go into the gym, make this New Year's resolution and I'm going to go on this journey of fitness. Copy link
8:27 So within the first three months in the gym, maybe like five, six times a week, I lost 15 pounds. Copy link
8:33 And then by the end of that year, I lost 50 pounds. Copy link
8:37 So it was just this crazy transformation of the physical body. Copy link
8:43 Yeah. Copy link
8:44 And two years later after that, I noticed that I had a lot of people in college who witnessed my journey. Copy link
8:54 And they started to ask me like, what are you, what have you been doing? Copy link
9:00 And at this point, like I was posting a little bit on social media. Copy link
9:02 I saw like a few fitness influencers that I would follow along. Copy link
9:05 I would do their workouts and I just felt really inspired by them. Copy link
9:09 And something that I realized about myself is like when someone else is doing it and I feel inspired by them, I think I can do that too. Copy link
9:16 So I started to post a little bit more about like working out. Copy link
9:20 And that's when I had people reach out to me and they were like, hey, like, do you have a fitness program that that you like have created or that you do that that I can follow along? Copy link
9:31 And that's like when the very first in the very first program, fitness program came out that I called Baby Got Backs Starter Guide. Copy link
9:41 And it was a Facebook group. It was $25. And I think about like 25 people signed up and did this like Word document fitness journey. And I started to hear a lot of great feedback. And I'm like, oh, like I can really help people. Copy link
9:59 What is interesting for me is this is pre-Olympic era, right? Copy link
10:06 When I think of like somebody being overweight, Copy link
10:09 is this desire to eat and not working out Copy link
10:15 and essentially all this, the yo-yo dieting Copy link
10:18 and it's hard to stick with it. Copy link
10:21 So I get that people lose weight in three, four months Copy link
10:24 and a lot of people come back to it. Copy link
10:27 Did something fundamentally change in you that you this became you that the way I see it, it became part of your identity that I'm fit, I'm healthy. Copy link
10:39 How did that happen? Copy link
10:40 Yeah, that's such a good question. Copy link
10:42 And I never have like put that together of like that was an identity that I stepped into. Copy link
10:47 It was like this is just who I am now. Copy link
10:49 I am I'm fit. Copy link
10:50 I work out. Copy link
10:51 I eat well. Copy link
10:52 And I think for me, it was this like devotion that I said to myself when I looked in the Copy link
10:57 mirror, like, I hate you. Copy link
10:59 I will never feel that way again. Copy link
11:01 It was like I was looking at my life and seeing the way in which I was fueling my body was Copy link
11:06 clearly not working out for me. Copy link
11:09 And stepping into something new, I actually had in the past, in like junior year, senior Copy link
11:15 year, I learned how to like calorie count. Copy link
11:18 And since I was very active, I already had the fundamentals of working out. Copy link
11:22 how to eat properly. And I had the opportunity just to go back into the knowledge I already had. Copy link
11:29 And I had a roommate who was very fit focused too. So she was able to teach me these things. But I Copy link
11:34 think with the moment of saying like, this is not who I'm going to be, I'm going to change. Copy link
11:40 I feel very disciplined and devoted to myself. So that identity was just like, this is, Copy link
11:45 I will never be not this. So at some point you were, let's say 2015, early 2016, you were Copy link
11:55 pretty fit, right? The way people perceive us changes the way we look. Sometimes it's hard to Copy link
12:04 admit and it is a fact of life. How did that feel for you? The way you were perceived, Copy link
12:10 did that change? If it did, how was it like for you? Yeah, I feel like people started to notice Copy link
12:16 me more. And like, oh, this this girl's pretty or she's fit. Like I would get a lot of comments Copy link
12:24 about my body. And, you know, in that moment, in those those days, I was very flattered by it. Copy link
12:33 And I also noticed like I was actually leading with my body. And that was actually defining my Copy link
12:38 worth like oh these people notice me so in a way I embodied a new identity and this identity like Copy link
12:45 came with like I need to keep this up because people are finally noticing me or they're finally Copy link
12:52 like finding me attractive in this way and I was like feeling very seen by that one of the things Copy link
13:00 that it's always I think about it is when how people find each other attractive right it is Copy link
13:10 a lot of times we we call it like vibe and energy and I think there is an element of that Copy link
13:18 the vibe and energy and the heart and intention frequency whatever jargon you want to use and the Copy link
13:25 other part is the physical attraction and this is not necessarily a sexual thing it can be Copy link
13:32 somebody who has like a symmetrical face right and i want to see how did it feel for you like did Copy link
13:41 your energy and vibe and frequency change uh or it was oh that element was fixed and then you became Copy link
13:49 fitter and physically more attractive and then the attention changed or one can argue because of those Copy link
13:57 physical changes the energy changes uh as a result like which one of these points of views is more Copy link
14:05 alive for you now yeah yeah i uh i feel like really seen in the energy of that and like Copy link
14:11 as i like reflect back as you're sharing that question or asking the question Copy link
14:15 I think with losing weight, there's a lot more energy that you have inside of your body. Copy link
14:21 And also as I was losing weight, I was noticing the anxiety and the depression that I was like Copy link
14:26 feeling with all of this weight on my body and how I was like eating to cope with that. Copy link
14:31 And maybe like hiding myself behind closed doors. Copy link
14:35 I no longer was feeling that as intensely. Copy link
14:38 So I think my energy was more, I'm more available to have connection. Copy link
14:42 I'm more available to be playful or to communicate with you because in which the energy inside, like the physicality, was actually a new energy that I was bringing out into the world. Copy link
15:00 We are coming to 2019-20, where you're facing the mirror again in 2020. Copy link
15:11 Take me there in the second mirror that you mentioned in your post. Copy link
15:17 What's alive there? Copy link
15:18 It's funny. Copy link
15:19 When you mentioned 2020, I got a big smile on my face. Copy link
15:24 And it's so interesting to me because 2020 was such a crazy year for a lot of us. Copy link
15:31 And I feel so much love and joy for that year of 2020 because of the moment in which I saw myself again in the mirror. Copy link
15:41 and that was April of 2020 where the world got really quiet and my inner world got so loud. Copy link
15:51 So when I looked myself in the mirror and I'm wearing this red bikini, Copy link
15:55 my body is the most fit that it's been probably ever. And I hear again, I hate you. Copy link
16:05 And at this point, I'm like, what the fuck? Like, what is happening right now? Because I'm like, Copy link
16:10 I told myself, I promised myself, I devoted, committed that I was never going to feel that Copy link
16:17 way again. Copy link
16:19 And what I realized was like, ah, I was trying so hard to change the external reality, but Copy link
16:27 that wasn't what I like needed to focus on. Copy link
16:31 The focus was, oh, I actually didn't love myself. Copy link
16:35 And I was trying to fix that with the external reality. Copy link
16:40 But in that moment, I realized, oh, I get to go inward this time. Copy link
16:44 I feel like a lot of us in our lives get to those feelings and emotion and it comes and goes. Copy link
16:50 What strikes me is that you took some actions. Copy link
16:56 You had a very successful fitness coaching and training programs. Copy link
17:04 And I think at some point you shifted. Copy link
17:07 Right. I think at this phase you became more of a lifestyle coach or I want to say and correct me if I'm wrong, like a healer energy type of job or coaching. Copy link
17:25 How did you make that switch? Did you have any experience with that? Copy link
17:29 So far, your focus was training and fitness. Copy link
17:32 Yeah. Copy link
17:32 And then you did this big jump into more of what I call spiritual realm and working with Copy link
17:41 people's emotions, people's insecurities, people's intentions, goals and aspirations. Copy link
17:48 Yeah. Copy link
17:49 It took actually a year and a half before I completely made the shift into more of the Copy link
17:55 healing space. Copy link
17:57 And I think for me, it was, okay, what do I get to do for myself to understand this? And like I said, Copy link
18:03 with the fitness journey, it's like when I see something or I like know that there's a change Copy link
18:07 that needs to be made, I throw myself into it. So I immediately in April, after I said, Copy link
18:14 I hate you again, I was like, okay, what needs to shift? And I found myself like, I have no idea Copy link
18:22 how this happened. I really am like trying to always go back. Why, how did I find Copy link
18:26 meditation because I just found meditation and I started to meditate and I started to affirm myself Copy link
18:35 and I started to journal more. And it was such a process because I'm still working out and I'm Copy link
18:40 still doing the journey of like the inner work now. And it took me a few months to like really Copy link
18:46 break through those inner critic noises and in that conversation. And what I started to see as Copy link
18:54 I was doing this own work internally, as well as doing fitness coaching, I started to become more Copy link
18:59 aware of my clients having the same negative self-talk or the same talk of if I fix, if I fix, Copy link
19:08 if I look different on the outside, then everything's going to be better. Everything's Copy link
19:13 going to change. Then I'll love myself. And so towards the end of 2020 and making of 2021, Copy link
19:19 that's when I started to invite in more of the conversation of what about your mindset? Copy link
19:28 Like, yeah, we can do the physical, but what about your mindset? And that was the first Copy link
19:33 transition into coaching. That wasn't just the physical. I went from like a personal training, Copy link
19:39 like movement coach to a movement and mindset coach. So like we could actually bridge the gap Copy link
19:45 because that was the journey that I was on was like, how can we bridge the two together and create Copy link
19:50 more of that? And that was about a year long journey. And then it was 2022 when I was like, Copy link
19:55 I no longer feel called to, to train the external. Like I I'm, I'm a mindset coach and I really want Copy link
20:04 to work with people in their minds and what do they think about themselves and how can we shed Copy link
20:10 more light into the self-love journey that, yes, it's still a physical work, but how can we really Copy link
20:16 just go inward and look at the stories and the conversations and the way in which we're perceiving Copy link
20:22 reality based on how we think about ourselves? Yeah, the way I think about it is that you were Copy link
20:28 working on physical fitness, right? Upstream of that is that how you think about yourself, Copy link
20:34 what are your intentions? Do you have presence? You know, what are your spiritual practices? Copy link
20:40 And if those are intact, this downstream will come. Copy link
20:44 There is not any shortage of training programs or calorie counting or paleo diet, what have Copy link
20:50 you, right? Copy link
20:52 And if that upstream is intact, people will figure out that diet and exercise. Copy link
20:59 And I feel like you were working in this downstream, which is very valuable. Copy link
21:04 And then you found this like missing piece that, hey, if we fix this, if it comes from love and intention and all of the physical fitness things might come into place automatically. Copy link
21:20 And then you would be the person to to kind of guide them through that. Copy link
21:25 Hey, by the way, this is the program you can just follow. Copy link
21:28 And then once that intention is set, they can just go at it and practice. Copy link
21:33 Yeah, exactly. And I love that. It's kind of like I see it as like the fitness market was a little bit saturated at that point or I like saw it as like they got this. Copy link
21:42 But like what what do I think I could or where do I actually feel like I could be of like greater service, which was like, ah, like I can really be with someone and what they're navigating. Copy link
21:54 Because like, as we both know, it's a journey to go really inward and to look at yourself. Copy link
22:01 And like fitness is, I think that's a journey as well. Copy link
22:04 But it's, I don't want to say black and white, but there is this, it's a little bit maybe Copy link
22:11 more simplified. Copy link
22:13 Like you eat this or you don't eat this. Copy link
22:15 You like go to the gym or you don't go to the gym. Copy link
22:17 And when it comes to emotions or like the inner world and the inner landscape, it's a Copy link
22:24 complicated. So having someone with you to help you understand it so you can in turn understand Copy link
22:30 yourself more and show up in the world more as you like that felt like the greatest calling I Copy link
22:36 couldn't unsee. And there were even people being like, can you still give me fitness coaching? Copy link
22:41 And I had to I had to close that door because like, yeah, it could have made me more money. Copy link
22:46 And I even think like if I would have stayed in the fitness business, where could I have been? Copy link
22:49 But my heart was like, this is the path forward is this. Copy link
22:54 Like, I need to follow that calling because this is this is the movement that can really change like consciousness of like an individual, but also in turn, the world and communities. Copy link
23:06 In in 2022, I think you you quit your job at Google. Copy link
23:11 I think you were based on my research, you work at Google from 2019 to 22. Copy link
23:18 Two, you quit your job and you basically started this journey. Copy link
23:26 The way I see it, a lot of people would love the security of a Google job, you know, in Copy link
23:33 terms of career, in terms of building the future, planning those 401k and all of the Copy link
23:40 things that your mind wants, you know, to feel secure. Copy link
23:43 And then you said no to all of that and started another journey. Copy link
23:51 What was the calling there? Copy link
23:52 Yeah, it's funny. Copy link
23:53 Like you say 401k and my stomach turns. Copy link
23:57 It's like the safety and the security that my parents taught me because that's what they know. Copy link
24:02 I was like that, like it didn't resonate with me. Copy link
24:06 And I think like the the calling was. Copy link
24:14 Yeah, I find this throughout my entire journey, like there's just like a whisper that comes in, like a whisper calling or like sometimes it's a booming voice where it's like, this is what you get to do. Copy link
24:26 This is what you must do. Copy link
24:28 And I have been living by this since 2019. Copy link
24:33 this motto of never settle, never settle. And where I was currently adding Google, Copy link
24:40 I just felt like I was settling. Like at this point, I just made it to, I was planning events Copy link
24:46 with Google. I just made it to like senior event manager planning events for the C-suite. Copy link
24:52 So like Sundar and the CFO, like all of these people. And like, you would think that that's like Copy link
24:59 an honor and like I should stay like that's like a cool thing to talk about or to brag about or Copy link
25:05 whatever it may be and I was there and was with these people and I'm like this is just this is Copy link
25:12 not me like I don't feel myself and I feel like I'm settling and that feels like a deep disservice Copy link
25:18 and I think through the journey that I went on starting in 2020 of like self-love and self-inquiry Copy link
25:24 And like what what is really going to make my heart sing and make me like fall in love with myself and with my life over and over and over again is like following the whispers in which I'm being directed. Copy link
25:39 Yeah, there are two things. One is imagine somebody in your shoes at Google, you know, getting this good benefits and good prospects for the future. All the things that our parents have taught us, which is to some extent is like based on fear. Hey, if you don't do this, you will not be secure in the future. Copy link
26:01 Some people don't even like notice this, right? Copy link
26:04 Don't even notice the feelings inside and hey, I just don't feel subtle. Copy link
26:09 You notice that. Copy link
26:10 So that's the first element. Copy link
26:12 The second element is do something about it. Copy link
26:16 I think what we are good at is just, okay, sure, I noticed that. Copy link
26:21 I do my meditation practice and whatnot. Copy link
26:24 And then forget about it. Copy link
26:26 like basically bringing attention to something else. Copy link
26:30 And then that lifestyle remains. Copy link
26:32 And you see people that they're in the same loop. Copy link
26:35 It can be anything, can be a relationship, job for years and years. Copy link
26:40 So you noticed you did the first thing and meditation and all the practices were useful, Copy link
26:45 but you took action. Copy link
26:47 And I think I want to take a pause on that. Copy link
26:49 What made it possible for you? Copy link
26:51 How did you make it possible for yourself to get out of that? Copy link
26:56 say no to all these benefits and job prospects that you had. I was like, oh, you want to make Copy link
27:02 something different. Immediately, like what comes to me is like, feel the fear and do it anyways. Copy link
27:08 It's like the, this huge thing that like erupts out of me. Like I think about the moment where Copy link
27:14 it was like February, it was March and I like got a business coach for the first time ever. Copy link
27:19 And I remember declaring to them, like, like after emoting emotions of like, it just, I like, I know I should, I know it would make sense for me to stay because of the security and like listing off all of these things. Copy link
27:34 And then I'm like, but if I really ask myself and I feel in my body what feels right for me, it's leaving. Copy link
27:43 And then I'm like, oh, but I feel so scared. Copy link
27:45 And then in that moment, I'm like, but I am like committing to leaving my job. Copy link
27:51 And then just like making that commitment and that like declaring it, I like it's funny recalling this back because I never use those words until like this year of like when I make that commitment, that's good declaration. Copy link
28:04 It's like, OK, it's going to be scary. Copy link
28:06 It's going to be maybe hard and challenging. Copy link
28:09 But like it's again honoring that inner voice. Copy link
28:12 That's like, yeah, like it it's a cush job. Copy link
28:15 and I could still be there right now and maybe making more money. But like, Copy link
28:22 is that really what my heart is asking of me? And like, can I really listen to my heart? And I feel Copy link
28:28 like all the work that I've done is like, what is, what do you think is possible in your vision of Copy link
28:34 life? And you can see that and you can like, you can choose a timeline. Is the timeline that you're Copy link
28:40 going to choose is like seeing what's possible for you and then saying, yeah, I can see what's Copy link
28:45 possible over there, but I'm just going to stay on this journey and choose this timeline. Or Copy link
28:49 you see what's possible in this future timeline and saying, okay, I'm going to do that one. Copy link
28:57 And I don't know. I know I said the F word earlier. I don't know if you can cuss. Can I cuss? Copy link
29:01 Yeah. Okay. Fuck around and find out. Like, like literally if I fail, I just, I can go back to a Copy link
29:09 nine to five. Like there's, that's always an option. And I feel like that has been like Copy link
29:14 something that I've carried with is like, that is always an option. So why not go out there and like Copy link
29:20 really try something that like makes my heart sing and like really feels like the power in which I'm Copy link
29:27 being pulled because I've been doing this work and not settling for what society or my parents Copy link
29:34 have told me and even they're like, Jesse, come on again, like again, you're going to try and be Copy link
29:39 risky. Like, and like, yeah, like, do you trust me? And more so do I trust myself? So it comes Copy link
29:47 back to self always. Yeah, what I'm hearing is and resonating with me is self love and embracing that Copy link
29:55 being okay with fear and also realizing the urgency which is we have a limited time on this planet Copy link
30:05 right if not now at the time in your you know 20s then then when you know there are things that you Copy link
30:14 do i for me i always regretted that i did not have a chance to do um travel and like stay in Copy link
30:23 hostels and things in my early 20s. I was on a visa and I could not do that. But there is a time Copy link
30:28 for that, right? In my 30s or 40s, probably would not be as easy or desirable. Yeah. And I feel that Copy link
30:40 you have this urgency, not in a bad way, in a way that, oh, time is limited. I'm on it. And I'm going Copy link
30:48 to honor uh what uh I want from myself honoring the self-love and then go at it which for a lot Copy link
30:57 of people might not just materialize that way yeah I feel like the I feel seen in the like the self-love Copy link
31:02 and I love the resonation too of like um like I guess my experience of you is like the more that Copy link
31:07 I know you the more that you love yourself and the more that you have been like actually like Copy link
31:11 stepping into things that are lagging your soul up or maybe the whispers are like you're actually Copy link
31:18 like hearing them being like okay I'm gonna like do it and then you're speaking those whispers out Copy link
31:21 into into the world. In late 2023 you left San Francisco to start your journey in Bali. Copy link
31:38 How did you make that decision? What was the calling in Bali for you? Copy link
31:44 Yeah, well, 2023 was such a journey, such a transition point. Like you mentioned the hostels. Copy link
31:50 And I feel to like name that where it was like the last, I was 28 at the time. And I was just Copy link
31:59 finishing a like spiritual mentorship earlier that year. And the woman that I was working with, Copy link
32:05 She was nomadic. She lived in Bali for some time. She was living in Costa Rica for some time. She was then in Brazil, like hosting ayahuasca retreats, like all of these things. Like she just was living a life that I never imagined that I would live or could live. Copy link
32:22 But the more I spent time with her, I realized like, oh, like this is actually an achievable Copy link
32:29 life and asking myself, is this what I want to live? Copy link
32:33 And it was the end of April of 2023. Copy link
32:38 And I just finished the mentorship program. Copy link
32:40 I just went through a medicine journey and I was like, I'm like first medicine facilitated Copy link
32:45 journey. Copy link
32:46 And it was like this huge opening, kind of like chapters closing. Copy link
32:49 and I knew a chapter was opening, but I didn't know what yet. And I found myself in Costa Rica Copy link
32:57 for two weeks by myself with a backpack. Never have I done that. That was my very first solo Copy link
33:04 international backpacking trip. Like the only time I've been out of the States was to Mexico Copy link
33:10 with my parents and we went to an all inclusive. So this was so different for me to be in a Copy link
33:16 different country, different currency, different language, but I felt like I needed to be there. Copy link
33:22 And after those two weeks there, it just felt like, oh, there are, there's so much more out Copy link
33:29 here in the world that I ever thought. So when I came back to the States, I remember sitting on the Copy link
33:34 couch with my partner at the time and I just started sobbing and we both looked at each other Copy link
33:41 and we're like, what is happening? Copy link
33:43 Like, what happened? Copy link
33:44 Like, we have no idea. Copy link
33:46 But I knew like something big was going to shift, Copy link
33:48 but I didn't know what. Copy link
33:50 And then three weeks later, it was June 6th. Copy link
33:52 I remember sitting in my bedroom and he walked in Copy link
33:56 and he was like, what's wrong? Copy link
33:59 He's like, is it your business? Copy link
34:01 And I was like, no. Copy link
34:02 He's like, is it us? Copy link
34:03 I'm like, yeah. Copy link
34:05 And we had this conversation where I was like, Copy link
34:09 I just, I don't know what I want. Copy link
34:11 and he's like, I'm going to describe a scenario to you. And on a scale of one to 10, tell me like Copy link
34:17 how it feels. And he's like, you're going to sell all your things. You're going to rehome your cats. Copy link
34:25 I had two cats at the time. You and I are going to uncouple and you're going to backpack around Copy link
34:34 South America, going from hostile to hostile, working on your business on a scale of one to Copy link
34:41 how's that sound I was like I would change it and he's like okay like what would you change Copy link
34:51 it's like I would sell all of my things I would re-hold my cats you and I would in a couple Copy link
34:59 and I'd move to Bali Copy link
35:04 and I felt shocked by that I did not know where that really came from Copy link
35:09 and he said on a scale of one to 10 like 11 and that moment was like our eyes met and tears fell Copy link
35:19 down our face because that was the moment in which I knew everything was going to change Copy link
35:24 our relationship my life completely and literally in the next month that's when I sold all my things Copy link
35:33 I re-homed my cats and it took a bit of time to go to Bali because I knew that I was going to go Copy link
35:38 to Bali, but they say this about Bali that you wait until she calls you. So I had this feeling Copy link
35:44 that I was going to be in Bali, but I didn't know exactly when in 2023. So it wasn't until September. Copy link
35:51 I just went to Burning Man for the first time. I just hosted my first retreats and I got back and Copy link
35:56 I was like in my energy healer phase and I heard the call it's like literal mama Bali just like Copy link
36:04 ring ring hey it's time you can come now and so in December 1st on December 1st that's when I Copy link
36:12 touched down to start my chapter in Bali yeah it's I remember that burning man I mean we saw each Copy link
36:20 other you were wearing a tutu yes i might edit this out but it was so cute i know add a photo Copy link
36:31 orange yeah i think that the first time also we saw each other was before that it was still in Copy link
36:40 this phase ecstatic dancing marine that was probably earlier that's that year it was right Copy link
36:45 I think it was in July of that year because David and I, my partner and I separated in June, June 6th. Copy link
36:52 And then I think it was July when I was like kind of getting out there into the exact dancing a little bit more. Copy link
37:00 And when we saw each other in the in the redwoods. Copy link
37:03 Let's talk about Bali. Copy link
37:07 How how did it materialize for you just living in Bali for the first time? Copy link
37:13 you said you went to Costa Rica for you know two weeks or Mexico before that this was the first Copy link
37:18 time we were actually living there right yeah getting a permanent place you initially went Copy link
37:24 with a partner um the I've been to Bali for just one week uh I know a lot of friends have been there Copy link
37:33 it's a spiritual place especially Ubud uh and I'm curious how was your experience that that first Copy link
37:40 few months in Bali. Yeah. Yeah. What a wild journey. So I, when I arrived there, I was single Copy link
37:48 and I like arrived without knowing anyone. So there was, I just packed up my things and I showed up Copy link
37:54 and, uh, my experience there was like, how do I describe it? It felt liberating. Like, Copy link
38:06 holy shit I am in a foreign country by myself and I know no one here it was it felt like an Copy link
38:15 opportunity to really lean into my self-love journey like I know myself because a lot of Copy link
38:22 people would say to me oh you're going to Bali to find yourself like eat pray love type vibes Copy link
38:27 and I'm like no I know exactly who I am I'm I'm just I'm going here to be exactly who I am Copy link
38:34 And that felt very true to me. So showing up at Bali, I had a really rough landing the first few Copy link
38:41 days because I didn't know what to expect. There was cockroaches in my Airbnb. It was just all of Copy link
38:46 these things were happening. And something that I like found comfort in was the dance floor. Copy link
38:54 And I had a few exfagnons under my belt from San Francisco, but I would say maybe only like Copy link
39:00 six or seven. So going to Bali, which is a huge dance capital, especially in Ubud, Copy link
39:06 I just found myself feeling so much peace there and a space of freedom and expression and embodiment. Copy link
39:15 And like that was the space in which I could really be like, I know exactly who I am. Copy link
39:23 I was just, I felt the most me, the most free. And I found so much safety and comfort, Copy link
39:29 not on the exact dance floor, but also on the contact improv dance floor. Like that was my Copy link
39:35 routine where I was only in Ubud for those six months that my first time in Bali. And every day Copy link
39:43 I was on the dance floor in contact with someone and feeling just like this opportunity of seeing Copy link
39:50 the stories or like the dissonance of like who I think I was or the parts of me I didn't know yet. Copy link
39:57 and actually having a conversation with myself on the dance floor, whether I'm dancing alone or also Copy link
40:02 with other people. And I think that was an opportunity of like me really seeing me and also Copy link
40:08 like stepping into a really powerful me, like a deep embodiment of when I walk through the world Copy link
40:16 now, I feel like I'm just dancing with life. Yeah, I feel like the ecstatic dance that Copy link
40:24 sort of kind of focused ecstatic dance and being with your body, right? I mean, you were into Copy link
40:31 fitness for a long time, and then you got into more spirituality. And I feel like this was a Copy link
40:38 combination of both, like movement and the service of the mind. When I think about like ecstatic Copy link
40:48 dance and a lot of people go in there and meditate with it you know just they're really embodied and Copy link
40:56 present yeah yeah and I saw it as like I always thought I was a bad dancer actually so I saw it Copy link
41:02 as an opportunity to look at that of like I'm really fit and I like I'm really aware of my body Copy link
41:08 and fitness what is it about dancing and I think that was kind of to go back to the 15 year old Copy link
41:14 when I walked through the halls, what are people going to think about me? And just being really Copy link
41:19 aware of other people versus myself. So I would always, when I stepped onto the dance floor, Copy link
41:24 embody this mantra out of the mind and into the body and over and over and over again, Copy link
41:30 like for a month, that was just every day, every day on the dance floor, I would say that. Copy link
41:35 And I was just noticing more about my body and my intuition started to get more alive. Copy link
41:40 And the way in which I was like understanding my body from the fitness journey and bringing like self love into it, because dancing is like such a such a experience of self love as like when I see you on the dance floor, I'm like, hey, this man loves himself. Copy link
41:54 He's just getting it in the groove. Copy link
41:59 At some point in your time in Bali, you had an invitation or several invitation to go to a different community. Copy link
42:09 How did that happen? What was the calling there? I mean, you were enjoying your life in Bali Copy link
42:17 and you decided to shift the gears a bit. Copy link
42:20 When I went to Bali, the intention was to find community and to be in community and to like open Copy link
42:27 myself up to travel opportunities and just be very curious. And I met someone when I met to Bali. Copy link
42:35 I went to Bali and he told me about this community that he knew of that was from his home country in the Netherlands and how they were like the spiritual community and how they really like connected. Copy link
42:49 It was very like retreat style. Copy link
42:50 It was like 14 of them just in like deep connection. Copy link
42:55 And I found interest in that, especially like being in Bali and like there's community there. Copy link
43:01 And I, I felt curious about like the intimacy of like a more closed knit community. Copy link
43:06 However, I felt, I felt an energy of something doesn't feel right here. Copy link
43:12 And that was like this first intuitive nudge of like, I'm, I'm unsure of how I feel about Copy link
43:17 this, but like still my curiosity brain, that's what like 2023 and 2024 was all about was Copy link
43:23 curiosity. Copy link
43:25 And the invitation to go there was when I met one of the or the leader of the community, the guru of the community. Copy link
43:38 And the decision to go there came in unison of really feeling enrolled on what the community was all about, which was self-realization, self-love, which like that was my whole journey was self-love. Copy link
43:53 Like it was an opportunity to forget about all the other things in the world and just Copy link
43:59 like be with me and love. Copy link
44:02 And also like this man and I decided to be together. Copy link
44:06 It was like, oh, this man who I just met, like really sees me for who I am and my power. Copy link
44:12 And he wants to be with me. Copy link
44:14 He wants to support me. Copy link
44:15 And he wants me to be a part of this community to not only love myself more, but also bring Copy link
44:20 the love that he already sees in me to the community. So I felt very like powerful and seen Copy link
44:27 and like, wow, as we've already talked about my journey here on this podcast, like I've had a huge Copy link
44:32 journey of self-love and I felt so excited to be able to be seen in that by someone who is a guru Copy link
44:38 of self-love and to share that in such an intimate community. So it's, it felt like such an invitation Copy link
44:47 and the invitation was an interesting one for me to say yes to because I'm like but I I said I Copy link
44:54 wanted to live in Bali I'm in Bali now like what's pulling me away so I sat with that I even went to Copy link
45:01 a waterfall to like really meditate on that like do I stay or do I go and there was this moment Copy link
45:07 where I'm in this orange bikini I'm like hand on my my heart on my belly I'm like sitting in the Copy link
45:13 water. And I have this interesting experience where I get this like uproar of like anger and fear. Copy link
45:21 And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like what? I'm like cursing the water. I'm like hitting the water. Copy link
45:27 And I say, I don't want to go. Oh, I don't want to go. And then that whisper, or in this case, Copy link
45:35 It was a booming voice that says, you have to go. Copy link
45:41 You have to go. Copy link
45:43 And that's the decision that I made. Copy link
45:46 It's like, clearly something is calling me here. Copy link
45:50 I'm just going to fuck around and find out. Copy link
45:54 Who was that that said that you have to go? Copy link
45:56 Was it the same characteristics or inner calling that you had when you wanted to quit your job at Google? Copy link
46:04 all these life transitions that you had, was it the nature of it different? Copy link
46:11 Or it was just another calling? Copy link
46:13 This is part of life. Copy link
46:14 This is the experience that I'm being called to do. Copy link
46:18 Yeah, I feel like it was the same voice, yet a more evolved voice, Copy link
46:22 like a stronger voice. Copy link
46:24 And I think it was the same. Copy link
46:25 It was just, oh, I'm more aware of this voice now. Copy link
46:29 And this is my inner guidance telling me. Copy link
46:33 And I was trying to fight my inner guidance this time where I was like, no, no, no, no, no, because I think I saw the timeline of which I would I would be stepping into if I said yes to it. Copy link
46:43 And there was a protection in that. And then also it was like, no, this is the journey in which you signed up for when you came to this earth. Copy link
46:51 Like you must go down this journey. Copy link
46:59 So you went to the Netherlands. Copy link
47:02 You eventually decided that your calling is to leave Bali, go to the Netherlands and accept this invitation. Copy link
47:12 And in your post, you described the first two weeks of this experience really blissful. Copy link
47:20 What was happening in those first two weeks, getting to know the community, getting to know this community leader. Copy link
47:30 And how was that for you? Copy link
47:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Copy link
47:34 It was a dream. Copy link
47:36 It felt like the first two weeks felt so surreal. Copy link
47:39 I describe it as it felt like every day was Christmas. Copy link
47:43 Where it felt like there was like pine tree smells. Copy link
47:48 And even like in his home, there was like garland that they still had left up. Copy link
47:53 So like just Christmas every single day where it felt like every day there was a celebration. Copy link
47:59 Like welcoming me there. Copy link
48:01 like, oh my gosh, this beautiful, incredible woman is here. Finally. That's the energy that I felt Copy link
48:07 from him. And then all of the community members, for the most part, were very welcoming and curious. Copy link
48:14 And we would have retreats throughout the first two weeks of like, we would have circles or we'd Copy link
48:20 go for walks or we would like have these big processes together that felt just so beautiful. Copy link
48:28 I was like, whoa, there's so much love here and there's so much connection here. Copy link
48:34 And it was an opportunity for me to also be of service. Copy link
48:38 And I love to be of service. Copy link
48:39 So I was helping around the homes and we would do brunch and we would do dinner. Copy link
48:45 And it was just so much togetherness with people who I felt were like so attuned and Copy link
48:52 so tapped into their hearts and just really wanted to love themselves. Copy link
48:57 I was like, oh, my gosh, I found I found like my people or I found like a place in which I get to really expand in my own self-love journey. Copy link
49:06 Reading through the your posts, you mentioned circling for many, many hours per day. Copy link
49:15 First of all, do you mind explaining what circling is for people that might not know? Copy link
49:19 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I for anyone who doesn't know, I hope they lean into circling. Copy link
49:25 It has absolutely changed my life. Copy link
49:28 And circling is a meditation and dialogue where you share what's present for you in the moment and how you feel, the impact you have from others or how others are impacting you. Copy link
49:42 And my experience of it is just a deep presencing of what is here and what is now without the stories, just being in the moment of what is alive and in the body. Copy link
49:54 It's such a beautiful practice. In our men's group, we practice elements of it, which is being embodied and getting rid of stories as men in general do more of and then being in the body and then see how it feels like. Copy link
50:13 I have done circling in the past, not as much as you have. And like one or two hours circling for Copy link
50:21 so many hours, you said like 10, sometimes 12 hours. How was that? Like, what is left? Like, Copy link
50:30 after a few hours, to me, it's like, okay, I had my emotional release. And I was with my body, Copy link
50:37 want my alone time to recharge in some way. Yeah, it's so interesting because that like alone time Copy link
50:44 was actually really frowned upon in the community. And that's something that I found so interesting Copy link
50:51 because I found like I love connection, but I need to be alone so I can really know how I feel Copy link
50:57 or like what's happening because trying to process in real time, if I'm not fully sure of like what Copy link
51:02 I actually feel and trying to share it out, it felt like it was maybe skewing it. So there was Copy link
51:08 always content, I would say, especially if there's between like, sometimes it was like three of us Copy link
51:13 circling, sometimes five, sometimes all 14 of us were in the circle together. And I think for us Copy link
51:20 in the like, the content was just there was always something there, because there's opportunity to go Copy link
51:27 deeper and to go deeper and to go deeper. And even if there was silence, the guru would always Copy link
51:35 encourage to go deeper. And even if he wasn't in the room and I was circling with people who Copy link
51:41 were, had been in the community for a few years at this time, they would take his teachings, Copy link
51:46 his practices of like, there's always something deeper. And I find for me, even in the circles Copy link
51:53 that I have hosted since is what is not being said. And I feel sometimes a little intense or Copy link
52:00 that I like crave the deepest, the deepest, the deepest, because I was taught that there is always Copy link
52:05 something more that can be said. Even if you think there isn't, you can find it inside of you. Copy link
52:11 And I think that's the, it was like we were constantly digging. And I, I noticed actually, Copy link
52:17 if I can like take a little pause, like I notice something that felt inauthentic for circling for Copy link
52:24 that long was there actually felt like there was nothing more. Yet I felt like I had to find Copy link
52:29 something. So I would choose something and process something that actually didn't feel alive for me, Copy link
52:35 but I felt like I had to choose that because if I didn't, then maybe I would be, they would tell Copy link
52:42 me that I'd be avoiding something. So I was just trying to find something to feel like there was Copy link
52:48 something to process because then like that was actually like the practice, like there has to be Copy link
52:52 something. You're never complete. It's interesting. Most of the spiritual practices, as I know, Copy link
52:58 there is this emphasis on just going deep within and doing this basically alone work, right, to Copy link
53:06 see what bubbles up. You have done Vipassana as well. You would be doing this after this period, Copy link
53:13 which we're going to go through that. And at the same time, I find it interesting that this Copy link
53:20 community emphasized more on this group connections, which is great. And I wonder Copy link
53:27 why being alone and doing those individual practices was frowned upon. Well, I guess the Copy link
53:33 question is, what were you thinking at the time about this phenomenon that, hey, it's really not Copy link
53:39 in course for us to spend time alone? And what do you think of it now after, you know, a few years Copy link
53:46 looking back? When I was in it and it was always encouraged to be with someone, I thought there was Copy link
53:52 this opportunity to be the most me when someone was near me. So I saw it as an opportunity, like, Copy link
54:01 okay, they're like when I was 15 walking down the hall or when I was on the dance floor with other Copy link
54:07 people around me, I was always thinking, what are these people thinking of me? And the encouragement Copy link
54:13 that I was taking at the time of never be alone was, okay, how can I be the most authentic me Copy link
54:20 with someone next to me? So I felt I wanted to lean into that opportunity of like, okay, Copy link
54:26 out of the mind, into the body, I'm always with someone. How can I not be overwhelmed by that? Copy link
54:31 How can I process even alone, even if someone's nearby or like, how can I process with someone Copy link
54:37 and still feel like I am being guided to the inner workings of me? Copy link
54:42 So that was like the experience when I was there. Copy link
54:46 And then in hindsight, I see it as, ah, well, if I was alone, then I would have started to Copy link
54:53 process on my own and would have begun to realize this is not right. Copy link
55:00 And I think towards the end of my time there, when I moved out of his house, I started to have more alone time. And even though it was frowned upon, he couldn't really force me into connection with people because I was no longer living with him. Copy link
55:13 And I think those were those moments where I started to hear these whispers of, you need to leave, it's time to go, this doesn't feel right. And if I would ever talk to someone about it, they would bring me back into, no, you need to be here. Copy link
55:29 But if I was ever alone with it, I was like, oh, like I'm actually being guided somewhere else. Copy link
55:34 So it was like an interesting like dissonance where I almost didn't want to be alone because I knew that it would bring me out of connection with the community. Copy link
55:42 And it would be like a really deep process that felt hard to come back into togetherness with the community. Copy link
55:50 Yeah. What is the right framework for this, Jesse? Throughout your post, you referred to this gathering of people as community and sometimes you call it cult. What is the difference in your opinion between a community? When does a community become a cult? And was this a cult? Copy link
56:11 Yeah, this 100% was a cult. And I think my interpretation or my definition of community versus cult or cult versus community is when there's one specific leader or guide that is standing at the front of the room or the one giving the direction and anyone else trying to offer something, he shoots you down or they try to constantly redirect to only his ways of teachings. Copy link
56:41 To me, that felt like there's a clear sign that this is a cult. Copy link
56:46 And not only that, it was this he described as a fountain where he was at the top of the Copy link
56:51 fountain and in ways in which when we would serve him and like bring energy towards him, Copy link
56:58 that the fountain would allow us that were like below him to drink. Copy link
57:03 Such an interesting way to actually reflect this back because it was a in a way a big Copy link
57:08 mindfuck where it's like, he's like, if we, if you serve me, you're also serving you. So this Copy link
57:15 constant direction towards that version or that person being at the top is, is in a way of how I Copy link
57:21 see it being a cult. And when I think of community and the community that we're in the community that Copy link
57:26 I like find myself in a lot, um, outside of the cult or after the cult is there's not like a clear Copy link
57:32 quote unquote leader, like community is just togetherness. Like we're all sharing leadership Copy link
57:38 here and we're all sharing certain ideas and no one really has an agenda to point you into a Copy link
57:44 certain direction. Like I noticed for the cult, there was always a motive and in community, Copy link
57:50 I don't feel the motive. I feel like I am being loved for just who I am and accepted versus trying Copy link
57:57 to be fit into this way of being or way of speaking to for a man to love me or a man to Copy link
58:05 even speak to me. Like if I didn't abide by his rules, I would be shunned here in community. It's Copy link
58:11 you can, yeah, however you want to show up, like you are allowed to show up. And that's just, Copy link
58:17 I can feel my shoulders relax when I think of the, like a community being just like a big hug versus Copy link
58:23 trying to shape you or force you into being something specific. Copy link
58:27 Looking back, you spent a few months there, right? And there are people that have spent Copy link
58:33 years there and there I'm not sure if still exists there's a few people still there yeah I know there Copy link
58:39 was a documentary that you participated in that about this particular cult I'm curious what was Copy link
58:46 the the price you were paying as as you were in this community slash cult at the time right um Copy link
58:54 being in the depth of it and um you know not being in touch maybe with your friends Copy link
59:02 yeah I'm I'm just curious what was there yeah it was interesting it was interesting I'm like Copy link
59:08 asking myself like what prices was was I paying and after like living in Bali and moving away from Copy link
59:17 San Francisco I was noticing my friendships from San Francisco were actually fading and then my like Copy link
59:22 my Bali friends like I still kept in contact with a few of them but I actually made this decision Copy link
59:27 that I was like, I was just going into this like fully, like, no matter, maybe I'm going to like, Copy link
59:31 leave some friends behind. I was like, maybe this is the path. I think the, like the biggest price Copy link
59:37 that I was paying was my impact that I desired to like bring to social media, into like my Copy link
59:44 online community. I stopped showing up because I started to forget who I was. Copy link
59:51 So the price I was paying was like pulling myself away from society because the way in which I now saw myself based on his ideas of me. Copy link
1:00:02 And not only that, like the price I was paying or the prices that people in my life are paying, like my parents, I feel emotional about it because I know how much fear that they were living in knowing that I was in this cult. Copy link
1:00:20 And they actually knew it was a cult. They like felt some interesting energy about it. And I even Copy link
1:00:27 like asked them, like, why didn't you say anything? And they're like, we had a fear that if we told Copy link
1:00:32 you or tried to pull you away that you would completely like shut us out. And we didn't, Copy link
1:00:38 we wanted to keep the door open. So I'm really noticing like the prices I was paying and my, Copy link
1:00:44 my family was paying was like so much fear. Like I feel so much sadness still of like my mom Copy link
1:00:49 telling me that she would cry herself to sleep many nights, like hoping that when she woke up, Copy link
1:00:54 that I like my phone was still on or that I was still alive. So I'm like, I'm just, I'm holding Copy link
1:01:00 a lot of gratitude for me getting out and it not being like that type of cult of leading to the, Copy link
1:01:07 that type of end. Um, but yeah, I'm just like, wow, there's, there is a lot of weight that's Copy link
1:01:13 still there for those who, um, who were holding that and not, um, in togetherness with me while Copy link
1:01:20 I was away. What woke you up? Like you were in this for a few months. Like we talked about, Copy link
1:01:27 I mean, there are people that have been in it for, for many years and then, uh, Copy link
1:01:33 you woke up and you have your, I call like third mirror experience that we started our conversation Copy link
1:01:40 that walk me through what was happening what was alive for you at that time yeah it was july Copy link
1:01:49 middle middle of july and at this point there was a lot of conversations that i was having with Copy link
1:01:58 the cult leader and other members and there was a lot of other experiences that were happening Copy link
1:02:05 behind closed doors. And there were a few things that were being said that I was going home and Copy link
1:02:15 just sitting with it. I'm like, that does not feel good. And an example being, Copy link
1:02:23 even when he moved me out of his house and I was living in a different home nearby, Copy link
1:02:29 I remember going to him and sobbing and saying like, this is all my fault. And he looked at me Copy link
1:02:38 and was like, this is 100% all of your fault. We would still be together if you were worthy. Copy link
1:02:47 And like those conversations like just didn't make sense to me. And I just, I felt so much like Copy link
1:02:54 pull side to side of like, okay, like, am I unworthy? Like, I believe I'm worthy, Copy link
1:02:59 but this man's telling me I'm not. And I have to do all of these things to, to, to prove that I'm Copy link
1:03:05 worthy. So I was noticing in these moments of like being with him, I was feeling so disgusting. Copy link
1:03:12 And then the moments when I wasn't with him and I found myself in time alone in front of my mirror, Copy link
1:03:18 looking at myself, feeling the unworthiness that I now believed about myself, but there was something Copy link
1:03:24 that was still inside of me, that I created that identity of worthiness and self-love that was Copy link
1:03:31 still holding on. And that moment in which where I looked myself in the mirror for the third time, Copy link
1:03:39 where I said, again, I hate you. I felt like this clearly is not my path then, because I Copy link
1:03:47 made a promise to myself that I would never say this again. It already happened a second time. Copy link
1:03:53 So the third time is clearly saying that something is wrong here. Copy link
1:03:58 But the interesting thing in that moment is I remember walking back to his house and I convinced myself because I knew I needed to convince myself for him to believe me that I was going to leave so that I could come back. Copy link
1:04:15 And I find it so I feel so grateful for like this in a way, maybe like it was a performance or like an act like I like I'm like, wow, there was something in me where it's like I this is this is exactly what I need to do, how I need to do it. Copy link
1:04:31 It was like a perfectly orchestrated like escape, I would say, because I don't think he would have let me leave if I did not if he didn't believe that I was going to come back. Copy link
1:04:41 Like physically preventing you to leave or all the emotional and manipulation that these people are. Copy link
1:04:50 Yeah, I would say more so it would be the like emotional and mental. Copy link
1:04:55 Yet that would be my own physical decision where I had said multiple times I think I should leave. Copy link
1:05:00 And then he would turn it around and say, like, it's unworthiness speaking. Copy link
1:05:05 The reason I want to leave is because I'm unworthy and I'm trying to run away from it. Copy link
1:05:10 So in order for me to break through, to deepen in self-love, it would mean that I needed to stay and really face that like feeling of of leaving him or or the community. Copy link
1:05:23 The way I see it is that deep inside, you knew you were worthy. You had the self-love and all those practices. I think it kind of came back and it is hard to to be in that environment and then see from outside what is happening. Copy link
1:05:44 And the other things that this can happen to anyone, like outside of it, you think, oh, this would never happen to me. Copy link
1:05:51 And I've seen time and time people, you know, being in this kind of environment and conditions without knowing. Copy link
1:05:59 So you coming up with that awareness, oh, this is happening just after a few months and pulling the trigger and leaving. Copy link
1:06:09 It's beautiful to watch. Copy link
1:06:11 I know it was a it was a difficult experience and I'm I find joy to see you, you know, being in your strength and then just I'm done getting out, signing off. Copy link
1:06:28 See ya. Copy link
1:06:29 Yeah. Copy link
1:06:30 Yeah. Copy link
1:06:30 I feel grateful for that reflection. Copy link
1:06:32 And like, even when you say joy, like what, what I shared with you when, you know, the Copy link
1:06:39 recording was off was like, I feel so like grateful that it happened to me and I wouldn't Copy link
1:06:45 change it. Copy link
1:06:46 And something that I like realize a lot is like the more in which we can feel the opposite Copy link
1:06:53 end of joy, which is like grief and depression, sorrow, all of those like sticky bits, the Copy link
1:07:00 more in which we can experience joy. And I feel like a five-year-old so much of like, just, I feel Copy link
1:07:08 so much joy all the time. And I feel like the reason why I can tap into all that joy is because Copy link
1:07:13 I have experienced a lot of like grief and pain and I wouldn't change it for anything because I Copy link
1:07:21 really see that journey of all the things I learned about myself and all of the tools I also took away, Copy link
1:07:29 like the circling and the way in which to be in my body and be in presence and in connection. Copy link
1:07:35 I am who I am because of that journey. And when I think back to that April in Bali cursing at the Copy link
1:07:42 waterfall, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. And hearing you have to go. I like, I see myself Copy link
1:07:48 in this moment, almost as if I was, I'm in this podcast, Mike, right now, speaking to that timeline Copy link
1:07:55 saying, you must go. Copy link
1:07:57 Like, you have to do this. Copy link
1:07:59 Just having the calling and listening to it. Copy link
1:08:02 Yeah. Copy link
1:08:03 There is this chapter right after your time in the Netherlands Copy link
1:08:09 and with this cult, you call it the crumble. Copy link
1:08:13 You came back, I think, to the U.S., I think Missouri, Colorado, Copy link
1:08:19 and then San Francisco. Copy link
1:08:21 What was that period look like for you? Copy link
1:08:25 what are like interesting when I think back to those like moments specifically like landing back Copy link
1:08:32 in Colorado where my sister lives for three weeks and then going to Missouri for two weeks and then Copy link
1:08:38 finding myself back in San Francisco I find it really fascinating that journey because landing Copy link
1:08:44 back in Colorado that was the moment in which I like vocally said and like my eyes were open like Copy link
1:08:54 a cult. Like I remember my friend or my sister's friends asking me all of these questions, Copy link
1:09:01 very curious and actually listening to me and saying like, Jesse, I think you were in a cult. Copy link
1:09:05 And I was like, whoa, I was. And then with my parents and saying to them, I was in a cult. Copy link
1:09:10 And they're like, yeah, we know. So there was those moments of like realization, but in those Copy link
1:09:16 five weeks, those three weeks in Colorado, those two weeks in Missouri, there was something in me Copy link
1:09:20 where I was like, I'm strong. This was nothing. This was like, this didn't hurt me at all. Like Copy link
1:09:26 I am like, I can move past this and kind of like trying to push past the reality of what I Copy link
1:09:33 experienced there. And I had this calling to come back to San Francisco. Like I always feel home Copy link
1:09:39 here. And when I came back, that's when everything crumbles. And it was almost in a way where it Copy link
1:09:48 felt like I didn't need to pretend anymore. And I feel grateful to say that. And also maybe a little Copy link
1:09:55 like guilty of like feeling like with my family, like maybe I felt like I had to pretend that I was Copy link
1:10:01 okay. Um, but coming back to San Francisco, I just felt so permissioned to just fall apart. Copy link
1:10:08 And like, like things just don't feel okay. And I literally saw like the life in which I thought I Copy link
1:10:16 was going to be able to come back to, like going back into business and being able to serve clients Copy link
1:10:22 again, I realized like that would be a disservice to them because I need to look at myself again Copy link
1:10:29 because I didn't love myself again. I really didn't. It just all got taken away and I was Copy link
1:10:36 looking at myself in the mirror, judging myself again or how I was interacting with the world. Copy link
1:10:41 All I could hear was his voice telling me that I wasn't good or I wasn't enough or I wasn't worthy Copy link
1:10:46 or I needed to do X, Y, Z to be loved or to love myself. So the crumble, like all of these, like, Copy link
1:10:56 like it was rubble that turned into ashes. I like looked at what I thought I created and it was all Copy link
1:11:02 gone again in that moment. And I was like, okay, now there's an opportunity. I don't know what Copy link
1:11:09 is going to happen or what it's going to look like but I get to build again and what do I want to Copy link
1:11:16 build from here yeah yeah I remember that phase I think we've met a few times when you were Copy link
1:11:29 back in SF as if Bali was an unfinished business like by business I mean like curiosity and Copy link
1:11:40 exploration and I think you were enjoying your life in Bali at the time when you got the quote Copy link
1:11:47 quote invitation from this cult and and their leader and you accepted the invitation and I Copy link
1:11:54 I think you had the calling when you came back to San Francisco 2025 to let's re-explore that, that calling to Bali. Copy link
1:12:04 And then you did. Copy link
1:12:08 How was that second experience in Bali for you? Copy link
1:12:11 What was the difference? Copy link
1:12:13 Yeah. Copy link
1:12:14 Yeah. Copy link
1:12:15 I think back to that moment, like when I was like, I'm going to go back to Bali. Copy link
1:12:19 It was February of 2025. Copy link
1:12:21 And I was like, there's unfinished business here. Copy link
1:12:24 And how I saw it was he took me away from my home in my community that I made in Bali. Copy link
1:12:31 So there was this like energy of not only am I going to like step back into my self-love Copy link
1:12:35 and know who I am again, I'm going back to my home. Copy link
1:12:38 I'm taking back my power that he took away from me by taking me out of Bali. Copy link
1:12:44 So landing back in Bali, I had this huge energy of like, I'm going to be back home. Copy link
1:12:53 I leave San Francisco and be back home in Bali. And when I landed, it was September. It was right Copy link
1:12:59 after Burning Man. I landed back in Bali and it was just like, oh my gosh, I'm home. I'm back at Copy link
1:13:05 the dance floor. I'm with all these people that I haven't seen for like a year and a half. And Copy link
1:13:12 I'm home. I did it. I remember this huge celebration, like crying in front of the mirror Copy link
1:13:19 at the Airbnb that I was at. And holy shit, I did it. Like I made it back. Copy link
1:13:27 And what feels really fascinating to me is after a few weeks, I started to feel like, Copy link
1:13:36 oh, this feels different. And I started to explore that a little bit more. And I realized Copy link
1:13:43 Bali wasn't different. It was actually the exact same as I left it. Like the same people, Copy link
1:13:50 the same energy, the same workshops, like everything just felt the exact same. Copy link
1:13:56 And then I looked at myself and I was like, oh, I have changed. I'm different. And the version of Copy link
1:14:05 me that came here 2023 and 2024 is not the version of me that I am now. And that felt really Copy link
1:14:13 interesting to be with because I had this idea of who I was when I was in Bali in 2024, when he took Copy link
1:14:20 me away from it, that I, in a way sounds like I was trying, like, as I speak it out loud now, Copy link
1:14:26 I was trying to go back to that version of me that like made it to Bali. I did it. I was so Copy link
1:14:32 proud of myself. So I wanted to feel that again. And when I wasn't feeling that I was searching Copy link
1:14:39 in Bali for an answer, like, where am I? Who am I? Do I go here in Bali? Do I try a new place? Copy link
1:14:46 Do I go to a small island and figure myself, I was just trying to find that version of me again. Copy link
1:14:53 And it was February or I guess January of 2026, where I was in my like three bedroom villa in the Copy link
1:15:01 middle of nowhere in Bali where I was trying to like silence the world so I could find myself again. Copy link
1:15:07 And I found myself again, sitting in front of the mirror, closing my eyes, meditating, Copy link
1:15:14 and realizing, having this whisper, you need to go home. Like this isn't, this isn't your home right Copy link
1:15:22 now or it isn't anymore. And that was a beautiful reminder of like, wow, like I am my home. Copy link
1:15:31 wherever I choose to be. I don't need to search it for something. Like I am that home. Copy link
1:15:37 In this period in Bali, I think you also did other exploration. We briefly talked about it, Copy link
1:15:43 but you did the 10 day Vipassana meditation for the first time, right? First time. Copy link
1:15:49 How was that? I'm curious to do like a comparison between those intense circling exploration Copy link
1:15:59 with the cult and then this 10 day Vipassana practice, which is another exploration, more Copy link
1:16:07 inward and then no eye contact, no talking silence. And then let's see what's happening inside. Copy link
1:16:14 Yeah. How was that for you? Copy link
1:16:19 I had such a, it was such an easy experience for me. That's how I describe my Vipassana. Copy link
1:16:24 And every time I say that, people are like shocked. Copy link
1:16:29 Like, that was hard for me. Copy link
1:16:30 What do you mean it was easy? Copy link
1:16:33 I just noticed how much my inner world, like I enjoy being in and being with. Copy link
1:16:40 Like I would say the first three days, there were some relational things that were happening Copy link
1:16:45 right before I got there. Copy link
1:16:46 So I was feeling frustrated and I was noticing where in which I was victimizing myself or Copy link
1:16:52 I was self, I was blaming them. Copy link
1:16:54 like just a lot of that was happening. And then once I just surrendered into loving me and loving Copy link
1:17:02 this person or these people, just everything got really quiet. And when I found myself in the later Copy link
1:17:10 days of the Vipassana, it was just funny to me because I'm having such a good time with myself Copy link
1:17:19 where I'm in the back of the room and I like have this routine that I do before we are going to sit Copy link
1:17:27 in absolute stillness for the hour. And I'm having like songs play in my head, like pump up songs. Copy link
1:17:34 And before I sit down, I'm like looking at the girl next to me, like really, she's just tapped in. Copy link
1:17:39 I'm like having a vision of us like clapping hands and like we got like just camaraderie that I'm Copy link
1:17:46 projecting. And I even had the, the female manager, like the woman who looked over the women, Copy link
1:17:53 uh, when we were able to talk after, she was like, yeah, you were always smiling and like, Copy link
1:17:59 you're not really supposed to do that in the Vipassana, like in this day. I was like, Copy link
1:18:04 and she's like, I just didn't, I didn't want to tell you to stop. Cause you were just, Copy link
1:18:07 yeah, you just were in your own world. And I think that's like a reflection of just how I Copy link
1:18:13 feel with myself is like when I'm with myself in that, that juxtaposition of like with me and with Copy link
1:18:21 the community, I've never used that word before, but I think it was a really good opportunity to Copy link
1:18:25 use it there of like being with so many people and trying to like find something or share something Copy link
1:18:32 versus just being with myself and be like, ah, like there's so much love here that I feel within Copy link
1:18:38 myself and I don't need to try and explain that. Or I don't need someone to tell me that I don't Copy link
1:18:42 love myself I can like see oh oh I can love myself a little bit more there let's let's be with that Copy link
1:18:47 so it was a lot gentler of an experience and showed me like all the things in which I have Copy link
1:18:54 practiced coming back to myself was like whoa I've been doing a good job here yeah as you were Copy link
1:19:01 describing this I realized so this happened after your cult experience and it seems that a lot of Copy link
1:19:09 their tactics it's like victimizing people like people feeling that oh they're they're victims Copy link
1:19:19 and they are and there is this element of that and also being accepting of the pain that has been Copy link
1:19:27 caused where do you sit between these two because we don't want to we want to be empowered and not Copy link
1:19:35 feeling victims there has been injustice right and then you want to be sitting with this pain Copy link
1:19:43 and observing it in a vipassana practice but then the victimization thing comes up how how was that Copy link
1:19:51 dichotomy for you yeah going through it yeah I actually shared about this in the documentary Copy link
1:19:57 that I was in before I was even in the documentary they would say to me when we would have FaceTime Copy link
1:20:03 calls like, and like, and you're a victim. And, and once they would say that I had so much aversion Copy link
1:20:09 to that. And I'm like, I don't want you to see me as a victim. I don't want anyone to see me as a Copy link
1:20:14 victim because I did actively choose this. And like the experience gave me so much. So when I think Copy link
1:20:21 about that in the Vipassana, where I like could sit with like the, like victim, like I'm a victim, Copy link
1:20:28 happened to me. I have trained, I trained myself before even the cult experience, like nothing's Copy link
1:20:35 ever happening to me. It's always happening for me. So when I was with that in the Vipassana, it was Copy link
1:20:43 like what I felt for the cult leader. Like I felt so much love and gratitude for him. Copy link
1:20:49 And I felt a little confused by that. Like I, like I want to hate him. Like it would be easy Copy link
1:20:53 to hate him or maybe some people would think it'd be easy but I just I felt so much like gratitude Copy link
1:21:02 and like joy that that happened to me and I wanted to I literally wanted to text him after I got out Copy link
1:21:09 of the vipassana and say thank you and that's not something that I will do yet it's like I will send Copy link
1:21:15 him like thank you for for letting me have this experience that has shaped me because I am so Copy link
1:21:23 powerful because of it. The other thing that comes up for me is, again, this dichotomy between depth Copy link
1:21:32 and intensity. Throughout all of your experiences, because some of the experiences are intense. I Copy link
1:21:40 think Vipassana is intense. I think circling for plus 10 hours is intense. And there is depth, Copy link
1:21:47 Right. We we want depth. We we get to go deep inside to discover things. Copy link
1:21:55 We get to go deep within our relationships to discover things. Copy link
1:22:00 And where do you see between these two intensity and depth throughout your life? Copy link
1:22:06 Does that emphasis has changed? Copy link
1:22:10 Yeah. Yeah. Copy link
1:22:12 I'm like literally seeing the energies of depth and the energy of like intensity and how like my relationship with them. Copy link
1:22:22 And I think what I experienced, especially like being like in the cult and going through that is nothing really feels that intense anymore. Copy link
1:22:33 And what I learned from like the intensity of the cult experience was something that I this teaching that I take with me and I feel gratitude for is you can feel such intensity and you can feel the resistance of it and you can feel yourself like wanting to fight it. Copy link
1:22:54 How can you surrender into the intensity? Copy link
1:22:57 Because that's where the depth lives. Copy link
1:23:00 So I can like feel myself literally like hovering over and seeing the like wall of intensity. Copy link
1:23:07 And then or like honestly, the ceiling is intensity. Copy link
1:23:10 And then when I drop in through the intensity, that is where there's actually so it's it's safety in the depth. Copy link
1:23:17 Like depth is actually a warm like it's warm water that's calm. Copy link
1:23:22 It's not the tsunami that we may make it like we think the intensity is like going to blow us around and create chaos. Copy link
1:23:29 But the surrendering of the intensity is where the like gentle depth gets to be or gets to be exposed. Copy link
1:23:37 How do you view circling now? Copy link
1:23:41 Yeah. How do you view circling now that you're back in San Francisco after all those experiences with the cult? Copy link
1:23:50 It's definitely changed from this like in this moment versus like last year when I was hosting circles. Copy link
1:23:57 So there's just so there's different energies of it. How I view it at this moment now is I almost see it as it's not necessarily just like a community or you're doing it with a bunch of people. I see like one on one feels circling to me. Copy link
1:24:13 Like I view circling as a way of engaging, a way of being almost, I think is the best way to put it. Like circling just feels like an embodiment or I feel that I embody circling where I love when I get the feedback that I just share whatever I'm feeling and whatever is on my mind or it feels very vulnerable to share, but it just feels so natural and it feels very safe to feel something that's in my body and be able to express it. Copy link
1:24:43 that in a way in which that's nonviolent, in a way in which that other people like they Copy link
1:24:49 also wanted to name it, too, but maybe they felt uncomfortable to name it. Copy link
1:24:53 So it almost feels like in this way in which I communicate or how I view circling now is Copy link
1:24:58 like it's just a way of being in this moment. Copy link
1:25:00 I want to go to this year. Copy link
1:25:05 You were active on Instagram, I think last year or before that. Copy link
1:25:11 And then at some point you close that page and then you started your coaching and your program from scratch this year. Copy link
1:25:23 And yeah, tell me more about that journey. Copy link
1:25:26 I've never had a lot of followers on Instagram and Instagram is kind of like a foreign land to me. Copy link
1:25:32 I know enough that you had a lot of followers and then you closed it and started from which is a big deal. Copy link
1:25:39 Yeah. Copy link
1:25:39 How was that journey and then what prompted you to close it and reopen it again? Copy link
1:25:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Copy link
1:25:48 I had a page that I started when I was a fitness coach that had about almost 11,000 followers. Copy link
1:25:55 And I deleted that in October of 2025 and restarted. Copy link
1:26:03 And so this year, when I came back to the States and I asked myself, like, what do I what do I want? Copy link
1:26:10 Like, what do I want out of life? Copy link
1:26:11 How do I want to be of service? Copy link
1:26:13 What like is going to bring me a lot of joy? Copy link
1:26:16 And like, what impact do I want to make into the world and for the world? Copy link
1:26:21 And I noticed like back in the cult, the Instagram thing, I was shamed for it. Copy link
1:26:28 So I was able to take back my power. Copy link
1:26:31 I'm like, no, I really like to be on Instagram. Copy link
1:26:33 It's a community. Copy link
1:26:33 It is a community on the social platform. Copy link
1:26:38 And I decided this year that I was going to like really create connection on Instagram. Copy link
1:26:47 I was going to lean into like my current life journey, which was reinventing myself. Copy link
1:26:52 Like I wanted to step into that and I know I wasn't alone. Copy link
1:26:56 And I think what I love about Instagram and any social platform is it gets to be you sharing your journey. Copy link
1:27:03 It is an evolution and it can be a space of deep vulnerability and authenticity. Copy link
1:27:10 Because if I'm experiencing it, someone else is. Copy link
1:27:12 And Instagram, as we all know, can be such a highlight reel. Copy link
1:27:16 And I wanted to provide an opportunity to say that it's not just the highlights. Copy link
1:27:21 Like I'm also going through some hard stuff. Copy link
1:27:23 or I'm feeling really sticky or like this moment happened to me and I didn't know what to do, Copy link
1:27:28 I almost threw it all away. Like in March, I didn't have to start my business or Instagram. Copy link
1:27:33 I could have gone a nine to five, but I decided to take a bet on myself and show up. Copy link
1:27:40 And how many followers do you have now in a matter of months? Copy link
1:27:45 Yeah, I went from 1,000 followers in March to now I just hit 28.3 thousand. Copy link
1:27:52 Yeah. And the goal is 100K by the end of this year. Copy link
1:27:55 So like I want to make big impact. Let's go. Copy link
1:27:58 That is crazy. Yeah. Copy link
1:27:59 What I hear, also your intention changed, right? Copy link
1:28:04 Your previous Instagram page was more about fitness. Copy link
1:28:10 You have that identity. Copy link
1:28:13 The identity you carry now is like more holistic and has other elements. Copy link
1:28:17 And for that, you made a new page. Copy link
1:28:20 And I think I've watched your videos. Copy link
1:28:23 I think it resonates with people. Copy link
1:28:25 And it's just naturally people are drawn to that kind of showing highlights and lowlights and just the real moments. Copy link
1:28:35 Yeah. Copy link
1:28:36 In life. Copy link
1:28:36 Yeah. Copy link
1:28:44 Yeah. Copy link
1:28:45 So we had three mirrors, right, that we covered and a lot more than we did not cover. Copy link
1:28:50 But in 2014, you stared at the mirror and said, I hate you. Copy link
1:28:58 2020, same message. Copy link
1:29:01 And then 2024, he said, I miss you. Copy link
1:29:05 If I'm placing a mirror in front of you at this time, right in October 2026, why would you see what's alive? Copy link
1:29:16 yeah, I feel my eyes begin to water as I envision a mirror in front of me in this moment. Copy link
1:29:21 Yeah, I'm like here. I feel so emotional. It's so beautiful. Copy link
1:29:26 Yeah, what I'm hearing is like, I'm so proud of you. Copy link
1:29:30 And I love you so much. Copy link
1:29:33 Like, thank you. Copy link
1:29:36 Like, there's so much joy that I feel in this moment, October of 2026. Copy link
1:29:42 Like not just for like the last few months where I've like really stretched myself and like leaned into so much love of myself. Copy link
1:29:51 Like reflecting back the last 12 years, 2014 to now. Copy link
1:29:57 Wow. Copy link
1:29:58 Like what a journey, Jesse. Copy link
1:30:02 Like you did it. Copy link
1:30:02 You keep doing it. Copy link
1:30:04 And this always, as I say, it's just the beginning. Copy link
1:30:07 Where can we go from here together? Copy link
1:30:10 Yeah. Copy link
1:30:11 yeah with that yeah it's been an amazing journey to to see you through three years just in the past Copy link
1:30:21 uh three four years and yeah i feel joy for you um i feel proud uh seeing you going through all Copy link
1:30:31 the hardships and uh starting over again and being strong and being authentic and loving Copy link
1:30:40 yeah thank you for being you thank you thank you for receiving me seeing me and loving me for me Copy link
1:30:48 I think this is a good place to end any other thoughts comments Copy link
1:30:56 yeah the something that I want to name that I've been experiencing as we're in this Copy link
1:31:02 beautiful room with the fun lights and cameras and mics is like just I'm seeing you for like Copy link
1:31:09 your love and your joy and I'm feeling just so proud of you there was a moment you looked at Copy link
1:31:14 your paper and checked your notes and I just was like you'll you can see it when you watch like a Copy link
1:31:19 huge smile on my face of like wow a boss like like it's a joy to be your friend oh yeah I appreciate Copy link
1:31:29 you, Jessie. So much love for you. Copy link
1:31:34 Thank you. Copy link
1:31:34 Thank you. Copy link
1:31:41 Thank you for spending this time with us. Copy link
1:31:44 Del bedel means Copy link
1:31:46 heart to heart. Copy link
1:31:47 And that is what this podcast is about. Copy link
1:31:50 Honest, heartfelt Copy link
1:31:52 conversations. The ones we Copy link
1:31:54 don't have often enough. Copy link
1:31:56 If something in this Copy link
1:31:57 conversation stayed with you, Copy link
1:32:00 I'd love to hear about it Copy link
1:32:02 leave a comment Copy link
1:32:03 tell me what resonated Copy link
1:32:05 who you would like to hear from Copy link
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1:32:10 if you were sitting in this very room Copy link
1:32:13 and if you would like more conversation like this one Copy link
1:32:16 subscribe on YouTube Copy link
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1:32:27 until next time Copy link
1:32:29 take care of your heart and the hearts around you. Copy link