0:00 I really wanted to play the world's best music with the world's best musicians Copy link
0:04 and the world's best stages. I'd go from one weekend to another weekend to another Copy link
0:07 weekend playing in a different orchestra. When I was 28 I was deep in audition Copy link
0:11 prep for one of the local orchestras and I really wanted this job and I woke up Copy link
0:16 one morning and then just not really able to play any more than just those Copy link
0:20 three notes and that was devastating. Copy link
0:29 I'm Abbas and this is Del Bedell Podcast, conversations about the stories we live but Copy link
0:34 rarely tell. Copy link
0:36 What happens when the identity you have spent your whole life building disappears overnight? Copy link
0:42 Alex Bednar built his life around music, chasing the world's best stages, until his own body Copy link
0:48 closed that path and opened another one. Copy link
0:53 This is a conversation about losing the thing that defined you, about rebuilding, through Copy link
0:59 community, through practice, through discovering you are more than the role you have played. Copy link
1:06 And about how the worst thing that ever happened to you, and the best thing that ever happened Copy link
1:11 to you, can turn out to be the same thing. Copy link
1:15 This is our conversation. Copy link
1:18 to the second episode of Del B Del podcast we have known each other for a few years now we first met Copy link
1:29 at the center SF the tea place for a breath work session that we were doing and and we've become Copy link
1:36 close friends you were a musician and that was your path so I want to start there I'm gonna dive Copy link
1:42 deeper into your childhood what prompted you to become a musician and what was Copy link
1:49 that like? Yeah thanks so much for having me I'm excited to dig it. My parents were Copy link
1:54 artistic from the beginning so my mom was a painter and a bass guitar Copy link
1:59 player and a band that's actually how her and my dad met. My dad was a keyboard Copy link
2:05 player and so they joined a band and I guess there was there was romance and Copy link
2:10 and the rest of his history. Copy link
2:13 And then as I was a child, and my parents eventually split up, Copy link
2:18 but I remember spending many nights in my dad's music studio Copy link
2:21 in the back of his mom's house. Copy link
2:24 They turned the garage into a music studio, him and his brother, Copy link
2:27 who played guitar. Copy link
2:29 And they had all their bands there. Copy link
2:31 My dad would always regale me about the stories of the glory days Copy link
2:33 of playing music at that house, having large parties Copy link
2:39 concerts and such. So I grew up around music often. I remember some of my earliest memories Copy link
2:44 were sitting in that studio and singing the music along with the band or after the band Copy link
2:50 had finished and spending quality time with my dad while he made music. So it's been, it Copy link
2:55 was deeply ingrained. I tried learning piano a lot in my youth, but it didn't really stick. Copy link
3:02 And it just wasn't the instrument for me. Copy link
3:04 It wasn't until middle school when I was at a program that I had a choice of either doing Copy link
3:12 band or German, taking German, which both sounded great, the German class sounded amazing, that Copy link
3:17 I decided to do music. Copy link
3:20 And I really wanted to play clarinet or French horn. Copy link
3:22 And I remember going home and telling my parents this. Copy link
3:25 And my step-grandfather at the time used to own a music shop back in the '70s. Copy link
3:31 So when I told him I wanted to play music and be in the band and the instrument choice I was going to make, he said, no, no, no, don't rent an instrument. Copy link
3:38 I have an instrument. Just wait right there. Copy link
3:40 So he went to his closet and pulled out a trombone that still had the cellophane wrapper around the instrument from the 70s. Copy link
3:46 So it was a brand new instrument. Copy link
3:49 And it was, I don't remember the first feeling. Copy link
3:52 It wasn't like jumping up and down excited. Copy link
3:54 It was just like, whoa, okay, this is the option. Copy link
3:59 And I think, you know, for me as a kid, I was just like, wow, this is happening. Copy link
4:04 Contrasting some of the people I met later in life who knew at age 11 they wanted to be a professional drumroll player. Copy link
4:09 That's not me. Copy link
4:12 So anyway, learned music. Copy link
4:14 I felt very called to learn it. Copy link
4:17 And then it wasn't until really high school that I fell in love with the instrument. Copy link
4:20 I remember there was like a critical moment of like, I'm either doing this or not. Copy link
4:23 I had gotten accepted to School of the Arts here in San Francisco. Copy link
4:27 And by the end of my first year, I felt really frustrated. Copy link
4:31 And again, I felt like if this is going to happen, it's here, right? Copy link
4:36 This is moment. Copy link
4:37 And there's a point where I got promoted to the upper band, and that really gave me the confidence I needed. Copy link
4:43 And I started really diving in deep with lessons and starting to go and play in community orchestras. Copy link
4:50 There's a community music center here on Cap Street that I used to go and play every Saturday with an orchestra there. Copy link
4:56 San Francisco is definitely like my musical birthplace. Copy link
5:01 I remember I was taking lessons with my teacher Copy link
5:04 like someday in that sophomore year of high school Copy link
5:07 here in San Francisco, Copy link
5:08 and we played some music together, Copy link
5:09 and the sound of just two trombones together Copy link
5:12 playing this music, Copy link
5:13 which was about basically an opium dream Copy link
5:16 that a composer had had and wrote it down Copy link
5:19 into a large-scale symphonic work Copy link
5:22 that's about like 80 or 90 minutes long Copy link
5:24 where he goes and he sees, he falls in love with a woman Copy link
5:29 and it culminates in this, she doesn't love, Copy link
5:32 it's like unrequited love. Copy link
5:33 She doesn't love him, but he loves her. Copy link
5:36 And so then he finds out that she's dating someone else. Copy link
5:38 So he gets in a carriage and is gonna go shoot them. Copy link
5:41 And then he has an opium dream hallucination Copy link
5:44 where he's being led up to his own death Copy link
5:46 and he watches his head get cut off Copy link
5:48 and it falls into the basket. Copy link
5:49 And you can hear this in the music. Copy link
5:51 And then in the last moment, he wakes up with his head Copy link
5:53 in a bubbling cauldron surrounded by witches. Copy link
5:55 And I remember playing this with my teacher and being like, Copy link
5:58 wow, this is what I want to do all the time. Copy link
6:00 So I create this music. Copy link
6:02 The sort of deeper meaning was really potent. Copy link
6:05 So, yeah, the rest is kind of history after that. Copy link
6:07 I was just applying myself and, you know, Copy link
6:10 I went to the Conservatory of Music and here in San Francisco Copy link
6:13 and then Indiana after that and then came back to California Copy link
6:16 and started my life as a professional musician. Copy link
6:20 Okay, and the journey, so you did your bachelor Copy link
6:23 in music here and then masters in Indiana right after each other. And then you landed on a job. Copy link
6:33 Oh no, so there's no guarantee of jobs in music. The path is wide open. I wanted to be an orchestral Copy link
6:41 trombonist, so that would mean auditioning for an orchestra and right out of college. I really Copy link
6:46 didn't have a lot of funds or money to go and fly around the country and take auditions, so Copy link
6:52 I had to be really specific with where I went and didn't really have a lot of success. Copy link
6:57 And I think trying to reach for the national stage, well, it can be great when you're in college and all you're doing is music when you get out of college. Copy link
7:06 And when I got out of college and I had other responsibilities like feeding myself and rent, it became more challenging. Copy link
7:13 But I didn't really let that stop me. Copy link
7:15 I found ways to practice before I would go to work and then practice when I get home from work. Copy link
7:21 to keep it going. Copy link
7:22 And then just found myself working a lot in Northern California, Copy link
7:26 playing in what's known as the Freeway Philharmonic, Copy link
7:29 where there's these little orchestras that are all over California, Copy link
7:31 from San Jose to Monterey to Santa Cruz to Santa Rosa to Marin to Fresno, Copy link
7:37 all over, Merced even, Copy link
7:41 where I'd go from one weekend to another weekend to another weekend Copy link
7:43 playing in a different orchestra and then teach music lessons in between. Copy link
7:48 And to put years on this, this era, you're coming to San Francisco and then pursuing this, what years are these? Copy link
7:55 Yeah, so I graduated my master's in 2008 and then moved to Monterey as my home base. Copy link
8:03 My wife at the time had gotten a job playing organ in the area there, so that was kind of our landing spot. Copy link
8:12 And then I would drive everywhere from there. Copy link
8:15 And there was one day, I remember I drove from Monterey to Sacramento to San Francisco, back to Monterey. Copy link
8:21 It was like a crazy amount of driving. Copy link
8:24 And that was in one day. Copy link
8:25 And that was wild. Copy link
8:27 But, yeah, so 2008. Copy link
8:29 And then I moved to San Francisco when I got divorced in 2015, 2016. Copy link
8:34 And then really set my home base here and started just working specifically from San Francisco. Copy link
8:40 And you're talking at this point, 2018, 2019, up until this point, music was everything. Copy link
8:47 That was your career, you know, you wanted to become a professional musician and something changed. Copy link
8:54 Yeah, so when I was 28, I was deep in audition prep for one of the local orchestras. Copy link
9:01 I really wanted this job and I was willing to try kind of anything to do it. Copy link
9:07 And I'd ask my friend what had worked for them. Copy link
9:09 and I really trusted this person, and I know it did work for them, and how they played. Copy link
9:14 And how I approached it, no one really knows exactly what happens, Copy link
9:24 but there is a condition for musicians called focal dystonia, which just means dysfunction, Copy link
9:30 and it can encompass things like muscle overuse or neurological neurons like misfiring. Copy link
9:39 And I remember this happened very quickly, actually. Copy link
9:42 I was prepping for this audition, and then all of a sudden I could only play like three notes. Copy link
9:49 And that happened overnight, which classically this takes, it's a slow decline. Copy link
9:57 So, you know, it could be major overuse of the muscles in my face. Copy link
10:01 But essentially the way the trombone works is you have a mouthpiece, and it goes on your lips, Copy link
10:07 and then all the muscles in your face come together Copy link
10:09 like a fireman squad holding a fireman net Copy link
10:13 so that you can maintain a certain amount of, Copy link
10:17 don't really wanna say tension, Copy link
10:19 but there's an amount of structure Copy link
10:24 that's in place while you blow air through your lips Copy link
10:26 so they vibrate. Copy link
10:27 Kind of like if I took two pieces of paper Copy link
10:28 and blew through them here. Copy link
10:30 And I woke up one morning and then just not really able Copy link
10:34 to play any more than just those three notes, Copy link
10:37 and that was devastating. Copy link
10:41 Yeah, there was a week of my life that I just wasn't, Copy link
10:44 I was so lost and couldn't take the audition, obviously. Copy link
10:48 And it started this, what I would consider Copy link
10:51 probably my first spiritual awakening, Copy link
10:53 of just realizing that I'm more than a function. Copy link
10:57 Because I think out of forever, for a long time, Copy link
11:00 I had spent a lot of time playing music Copy link
11:04 to belong to my parents because they were artists Copy link
11:07 or belong to my musical community because I was really good at what I did Copy link
11:11 and people liked working with me and we made music music together. Copy link
11:17 And when I couldn't do that, Copy link
11:20 and I felt like my star was rising and all that, Copy link
11:22 and when I couldn't do that, it was devastating. Copy link
11:29 And I realized that, and I luckily had a mentor Copy link
11:31 who lived in Santa Cruz Mountains. Copy link
11:34 His name's Jim Dooley, who had gone through a playing reconfiguration, and he was such Copy link
11:40 a support during this time. Copy link
11:42 He had so much empathy and just could understand what it was like to be me, and I really needed Copy link
11:47 that in that time. Copy link
11:49 So for a couple years, I spent really trying to work through it. Copy link
11:55 Like for a year, I didn't play at all. Copy link
11:58 And then I started coming back to freelancing again and was able to do crazy things that I can't even imagine now. Copy link
12:05 Trying all sorts of, trying anything, trying anything and everything to make it work. Copy link
12:09 To heal? Copy link
12:10 Well, because it's not an injury. Copy link
12:12 So basically, the way dystonia works, as I mentioned, it's not an actual tearing of muscle or necessarily something physical. Copy link
12:20 It took me about six years of trying to reform my playing before I went to go see the top doctor who diagnoses musicians with this condition, who confirmed that I had it. Copy link
12:31 So I was 34 at the time. Copy link
12:34 So, yeah, six years. Copy link
12:36 And that's when I was like, well, I'm just going to do something else. Copy link
12:43 So in that six years, though, it's a huge journey. Copy link
12:47 to understand that they do MRIs on people to figure this out, Copy link
12:52 and they've done studies on brass players to figure this out, Copy link
12:54 and they don't know. Copy link
12:55 The images show nothing. Copy link
12:57 But these musicians cannot play. Copy link
12:59 And you can get it as an oboe player once got it in his fingers. Copy link
13:04 Pianists can get it in their hands, either one hand or both hands. Copy link
13:07 Brass players tend to get it in their face. Copy link
13:09 And there's been well-documented cases of people in the New York Philharmonic Copy link
13:13 and many other places that have gotten this chop, what they call like chop dysfunction, Copy link
13:18 so focal dystonia. Copy link
13:20 It's really a devastating thing. Copy link
13:21 So going back to like what was it like, it was to realize that I was more than a function, Copy link
13:26 I was more than a trombone. Copy link
13:28 And that's what I saw in myself. Copy link
13:29 My worth is defined by how well I could play this instrument because it was my point of Copy link
13:33 reference for everything else in my life. Copy link
13:35 And so to let that go was a very slow, hard journey. Copy link
13:42 And I left many times after playing a night where my colleagues were like, you sound fine, I don't notice anything. Copy link
13:48 Where I was feeling devastated and I was leaving crying because I couldn't achieve the result I was looking for. Copy link
13:54 I was telling the commands in my mind to do the thing that I knew and it wouldn't do it. Copy link
13:59 And no matter how I tried to re-approach it, it would just come back to the point of failure. Copy link
14:05 There was a point towards the end there when I started getting heart palpitations on stage because of the stress. Copy link
14:11 the anxiety of playing. So you were performing so like this is to an untrained or okay like trained Copy link
14:20 ear this sounded good so you or you could like perform some versions of the song not very Copy link
14:27 complicated. No it's not it's more like I could I could um I could evoke what was necessary to get Copy link
14:36 the job done and when you're listening to an orchestra of you know 60 to 90 people you can't Copy link
14:40 really pick out the nuance of one sound. You can hear the sound happening but not Copy link
14:44 necessarily the nuance of the sound. Even the people next to you, they're focused Copy link
14:47 on making their own sound. They're not necessarily listening to you because Copy link
14:51 they're focused on what they're doing. And so it was fine enough to work but I Copy link
14:56 would never win an audition with that sound. And so knowing that I knew that I Copy link
15:01 was capped at my potential. And so for that like I really wanted to play the Copy link
15:08 world's best music with the world's best musicians of the world's best stages and Copy link
15:14 for that to not happen it felt yeah like I had to I got to go through this Copy link
15:22 discovery of I am more than an instrument and during that time a lot of amazing Copy link
15:26 things happen like discovered I was an amazing teacher and discovered like how Copy link
15:31 how much I can improve my musicianship without my instrument and how I could Copy link
15:36 really convey how to play an instrument to a very high degree without actually demonstrating Copy link
15:41 anything. Copy link
15:42 A lot of my students went on to play in the national stage and that was really gratifying Copy link
15:47 to see that happen. Copy link
15:49 So a lot of growth and development during this time that was both spiritual and musical Copy link
15:58 and then really getting real with life direction. Copy link
16:07 Alex do you remember the moment or the day that you decided okay this is it I'm moving on yeah Copy link
16:14 it was the day I got diagnosed I just felt free and I don't know why what it was what was difficult Copy link
16:20 about it for me to to just say this for myself versus having someone tell me that this is what Copy link
16:26 this is and this is the final final. But that's what it took was someone to say from the outside, Copy link
16:34 like, this is it. And then I could say, great, I'm released. I get to try and do something else now. Copy link
16:41 And, you know, for years after that moment, I still played, you know, and I still will play today. Copy link
16:48 And it's not to the level that I dream about. So it's, I find it difficult to continue to chase a Copy link
16:56 that feels like it's impossible. Copy link
16:59 And what's funny is that that was always the case when I was a student, Copy link
17:04 but I always felt the unlimited potential of myself. Copy link
17:08 And so to feel that my potential is somehow limited, I feel sadness Copy link
17:14 and just sort of I don't feel the same drive to put in the investment with the instrument. Copy link
17:21 I've realized, you know, oftentimes we've gone to festivals and places that play music. Copy link
17:30 And given that you used to be a professional musician, maybe it's just my experience. Copy link
17:36 I don't feel that sometimes a joy. Copy link
17:40 What are your thoughts on this observation? Copy link
17:42 I would also say that I still am a professional musician. Copy link
17:44 I still am those things. Copy link
17:46 I still have all the skills that I've acquired from over the years. Copy link
17:50 I just choose not to pursue it full time. Copy link
17:53 So I think that's important. Copy link
17:54 As far as the experiencing of music, Copy link
17:58 I think my relationship with music was always about getting lost Copy link
18:02 in the texture and the fabric of the music being created by others. Copy link
18:07 So when I go experience a show, Copy link
18:10 it would be to experience how do they do it Copy link
18:13 and how can I bring what I'm hearing into my own work. Copy link
18:19 And when I was playing on stage, I felt like I'm playing this music to recreate the music, Copy link
18:23 to channel the music, not necessarily to play for people. Copy link
18:28 More like we're all creating something here, and then it's like this convection of creation and experience. Copy link
18:36 We're all experiencing it live. Copy link
18:38 Without anyone reading and playing the music, the music is dead. Copy link
18:41 So it's just not necessarily my joy. Copy link
18:44 It doesn't light me up. Copy link
18:46 The evoking of the music lights me up. Copy link
18:48 the playing of the music, it lights me up. Copy link
18:50 The listening to it, it can, it can, Copy link
18:55 but from where I am now, Copy link
18:58 I wanna be on the stage creating the music. Copy link
19:01 So it's more just allowing it to, Copy link
19:04 allowing that to happen and appreciating, Copy link
19:07 appreciating it, but then not necessarily feeling like, Copy link
19:10 wow, this is what I live for. Copy link
19:12 Let's go beyond music. Copy link
19:15 After, Copy link
19:18 Yeah, after you decided music is not your path, you started working on other projects, right? Copy link
19:27 And you pursued a job in tech industry. Copy link
19:33 How did you make that decision? Copy link
19:34 Was it easy? Copy link
19:35 Was it hard? Copy link
19:37 Yeah, honestly, it was just about the economics of just I didn't want to scale a teaching business. Copy link
19:44 So I had a lot of students at the time, but I felt like I had reached my maximum potential on teaching and really didn't feel I could teach more. Copy link
19:54 And I didn't want to experience the sort of psychological expense or spiritual expense of teaching that many students. Copy link
20:02 So, you know, I think if I was more entrepreneurial, I probably could have figured out how to scale the business online. Copy link
20:07 But I didn't do that. And there are people who do that. I'm so excited for them. Copy link
20:12 I just had this feeling in 2018 that if I was going to make a switch, it had to happen now. Copy link
20:17 And so I just started applying, and I just took one person to take a chance on me. Copy link
20:21 I was so lucky. Copy link
20:22 I had a hiring manager who had played saxophone in college and could see the connection of music, teacher, and then also how I'd work in business. Copy link
20:31 And from that first job, I was able to grow the rest of my career to where it is today. Copy link
20:35 And I feel there's so much resonance with what I'm doing and what I used to do for teaching and music creation. Copy link
20:47 There's a lot of creativity, which I really feel grateful for. Copy link
20:51 Yeah, it's funny because the timing of it was so interesting. Copy link
20:54 I'm just having this internal voice that has to happen now, not knowing why. Copy link
20:59 I wanted to be sort of like the one of the the cool kids in San Francisco who is like able to Copy link
21:03 enjoy all the it was like an adult playground back you know before COVID it was just like Copy link
21:09 lights and just going out and just everyone spending their money which I was like wow I Copy link
21:14 want to be able to do that and then finding it somehow myself in the right role that actually Copy link
21:19 aligns well with who I am and again realizing I'm more than just a function which is important Copy link
21:25 And yeah, essentially the timing of such is then COVID happened and then the whole music industry shut down where I was able to continue working and providing myself a living, which I don't know what I would have done as a professional musician. Copy link
21:42 I think it was a really hard time for musicians playing live music. Copy link
21:52 So Alex, I met you, I think 2022-ish. Copy link
21:58 Sounds right. Copy link
21:59 At the Center SF. Copy link
22:00 And at that point, so whatever we talked about, I feel like it was Alex 1.0. Copy link
22:07 Music, and then, you know, this happened with your music journey and then tech industry. Copy link
22:12 And then after COVID in 2022, the Alex that I met, I met you in a Brethburg session. Copy link
22:21 And over the years, we have become close friends. Copy link
22:26 I've learned a ton from you, right? Copy link
22:29 The things that we have done together, you invited me to our men's group, which we did for two years. Copy link
22:39 Several festivals, breath work. Copy link
22:42 We co-organized together a bi-weekly meditation event in San Francisco, among other things. Copy link
22:51 um this transformational programs that we've been going together and the intentional community that Copy link
22:58 we are part of and our interest in spirituality and medicine journey let's talk about that so Copy link
23:07 starting 2022 it's alex 2.0 the alex that i met right and um started our friendship basically Copy link
23:16 What changed this transition from 1.0 to 2.0? Copy link
23:20 How did that happen? Copy link
23:22 I mean, I almost think this is 3.0, because 2.0 happened when my playing fell apart at 28. Copy link
23:27 I had to evolve. Copy link
23:29 And then this third iteration of myself, because I had been in that second, in the 2.0, Copy link
23:34 was like all the work and all that other reformulating career. Copy link
23:37 Then 3.0 is really the result of, dare I say, even 3.0, 4.0, we just keep going. Copy link
23:44 Like all the versions. Copy link
23:46 Yeah, I know. Copy link
23:47 Really, because it was a result of a breakup. Copy link
23:50 So I had broken up with my longtime partner, two and a half, three years. Copy link
23:58 And we were apart for a bit. Copy link
24:01 And then we reconnected. Copy link
24:03 And she had discovered the center and all these events. Copy link
24:06 And I really wanted her to want to be with me. Copy link
24:12 And of course, I wanted to explore all these things, being curious. Copy link
24:17 And of course, wanting her to want me part of all this. Copy link
24:19 This is like a combination. Copy link
24:22 I wanted to be doing what she was doing, you know. Copy link
24:24 And it brought me to Breathwork and to meet you. Copy link
24:29 Yeah. Copy link
24:31 Yeah, there are a couple of things here. Copy link
24:33 I think during the Breathwork session, I think that session was interesting. Copy link
24:41 I was in emotional state and I remember you being in this emotional state of like doing this deep Copy link
24:48 breath work and then I remember I came close to you after the session and like holding your hand and Copy link
24:55 that was yeah the beginning of our friendship. I want to talk more about men's group like this is Copy link
25:03 something that we both were part of. We're taking a break this season and hoping that we'll both Copy link
25:11 come back to it. How did that start? Yeah, men's group I feel is a little bit later because after Copy link
25:19 meeting you at the center and like experiencing breath work and all these other modalities, Copy link
25:24 I really dove in deep into spiritual Burning Man, whatever you want to call it, sort of like Copy link
25:32 amalgamation of cultures that the center was offering from tea culture to yoga. Copy link
25:38 I started practicing yoga like two to three times a week. Copy link
25:42 Meditation on a weekly basis, which I had discovered meditation in my college. Copy link
25:46 I had a Buddhist practitioner who was one of my music teachers who taught us meditation. Copy link
25:51 It was a fascinating experience because we started over the course of two years. Copy link
25:56 He'd have us close our eyes, go through a body scan, Copy link
26:00 visualize and hear a middle C on the piano, Copy link
26:03 and then we'd sing it, and then he'd play it, Copy link
26:06 and we'd be like, "Wah!" all over the place. Copy link
26:07 There's like every note but C. Copy link
26:10 But by the time we get to the end of the second year, Copy link
26:12 everyone is singing a middle C perfectly. Copy link
26:15 Everyone is singing it perfectly. Copy link
26:17 So I had experienced meditation, Copy link
26:19 and also I used the same meditation technique Copy link
26:22 of just body scanning to prepare Copy link
26:24 for my freshman jury, which is like your final for music. Copy link
26:29 And the faculty was like, you were the best jury out Copy link
26:34 of the whole department. Copy link
26:35 So meditation had a lot of history for me. Copy link
26:38 But to reconnect with that center was really special. Copy link
26:42 And in that time, too, discovering transformational work. Copy link
26:47 So that's the context from where men's group came from, Copy link
26:51 where Ariel's brother, Aaron, is really, that's my partner, Ariel, an advocate for men's group. Copy link
26:58 He had changed his life. He'd been doing it, you know, six plus years. Copy link
27:02 And I went down with him to Los Angeles, where his men's group was, to visit that group with him together. Copy link
27:10 And experienced it because he was living in Los Angeles, so I went down to meet him there. Copy link
27:15 And he wanted to move back to the Bay Area where he's from. Copy link
27:18 And we had talked about maybe starting a men's group, so he wanted me to try it out. Copy link
27:22 So I tried it out. It was great. Copy link
27:23 It reminded me a lot of the other work that I had done. Copy link
27:25 And so when that spring, it was a couple years ago now, three years ago, Copy link
27:31 where he's like, all right, I'm moving back. Copy link
27:32 I'm like, great, we'll start this men's group. Copy link
27:34 I've been thinking about it for a while. Copy link
27:35 I've thought of all my dear friends and, like, wouldn't it be great Copy link
27:38 if we could all get together as men and really work on our emotional, Copy link
27:42 somatic experience and also work on holding each other versus just giving advice, Copy link
27:46 which I feel is so classically masculine. Copy link
27:49 It's just like, you know what you ought to do? Copy link
27:50 You ought to do this. Copy link
27:53 And so that's how that started. Copy link
27:55 And I also saw in the men's group, Copy link
27:56 there's such a rich container to practice Copy link
28:03 all of the stuff that I had learned Copy link
28:04 in my personal development work, Copy link
28:08 which is all about stretches Copy link
28:09 and how do I set the stretch, Copy link
28:12 and then how do I show up and keep my word to do this Copy link
28:15 and all this other stuff. Copy link
28:17 So it was a really rich space and I'm so glad that you said yes and came and joined us. Copy link
28:29 The other thing that I want to ask is about intentional community building. Copy link
28:35 You and Ariel, both of you, put a lot of effort into making meaningful events, the kind of Copy link
28:43 events that people deeply connect it's encouraged that they just don't say hey Copy link
28:49 I'm good thank you how are you just going deeper being vulnerable and I Copy link
28:55 remember you were hosting this like I think one monthly dinners with like Copy link
29:01 themes and agreed you will organize and well thought of and tell tell us more Copy link
29:08 about that like where did that start that that journey to be this space for community gathering Copy link
29:15 and holding that space yeah well in my my um one point i was so i really liked to host and i think Copy link
29:26 at the bottom of the hosting is i really wanted to be close with friends i really wanted i already Copy link
29:32 had a sense of I really wanted authentic connections. Copy link
29:34 And so the way I felt I could do that Copy link
29:38 would be to offer something in return for community, Copy link
29:42 for people to gather. Copy link
29:43 And it was usually food. Copy link
29:44 Or I did wine tasting parties, which Copy link
29:48 is a fascinating format, but also realized Copy link
29:50 that everyone just gets drunk at the end of that. Copy link
29:52 And no one can really remember the connection that happened. Copy link
29:54 It would leave me feeling more connected. Copy link
29:56 And so when all that fell away and I Copy link
29:59 I got more into embodiment and spirituality and all that other stuff. Copy link
30:04 I still had a feeling of really wanting to know people. Copy link
30:11 And I think as a young child, I had a lot of wounding around community and belonging Copy link
30:18 because I moved a lot. Copy link
30:19 My parents were divorced, didn't have a steady landing place, Copy link
30:24 didn't have parents who really fostered me to go and have friend connections. Copy link
30:29 you know they were there but they were there to say great you can go play but Copy link
30:33 it wasn't like I have a story of some parents really just like you know are Copy link
30:37 helping their kids get started and they they get their own you know confidence Copy link
30:41 they can do this so for a long time I only really had like one friend at a Copy link
30:45 time no matter where I was so when I finally came into the the center Copy link
30:49 community and everyone was just so welcoming so like you know my first Copy link
30:53 experience the center was walking in there flirting with whoever was behind Copy link
30:58 the bar just being friendly and bantering, not necessarily like, you know, sexy. Copy link
31:04 And they just said thank you after I gave them a compliment and it really moved me Copy link
31:08 like, ah, wow, I can tell they really meant that. So I just started, you know, Copy link
31:16 gravitating more to that space and then thinking about how can I, again, be more Copy link
31:22 loved by my partner who loves thoughtful intentional conversations and it's kind of funny you kind of Copy link
31:31 fell into it the intentional thing because uh i remember she went down my partner went down to Copy link
31:37 her family for thanksgiving she did thanksgiving down there and i stayed up here and i had actually Copy link
31:43 invited a bunch of the the thanksgiving orphans over to my house to have dinner and we kind of Copy link
31:52 Jeffersonian dinner and at Jeffersonian so Thomas Jefferson was known to have dinners where he'd invite people from both sides of the political line or any side of the political line and the stipulations of the dinner is that only one person has the floor at a time and no one is allowed to interrupt and they give them a full space they can ask questions after they're done and so for this Thanksgiving dinner that's what happened is we had one person at a time single thread conversation just share something and ask a question we have a topic going around we just talk about Thanksgiving Copy link
32:22 Thanksgiving in that sense. And it was so rewarding and so I felt so connected Copy link
32:27 afterwards. And so I was like, well, I got to keep doing this and then come to find Copy link
32:32 later in a book called The Art of Gathering about Thomas Jefferson and sort of like the Copy link
32:37 science and the art of actually creating gathering spaces. And so that that's a book I Copy link
32:42 highly recommend to anybody who wants to learn how to really host well. It's The Art of Gathering. Copy link
32:48 And that's kind of opened the door to everything. Copy link
32:51 Community events, meditation, the meditation format was born again. Copy link
32:55 Like, what would I want? Copy link
32:56 I would want to be, I want to meditate, I want to eat, and then I want to have a conversation Copy link
33:01 about something, right? Copy link
33:02 And I don't necessarily want to be taught or led. Copy link
33:06 It's just we're going to all do it for each other. Copy link
33:09 So as an example. Copy link
33:18 yeah let's talk about this program that I'm doing right now Phoenix Rising Copy link
33:24 let's let's talk about that and how it impacted your life as you were doing it yeah so for those Copy link
33:31 people that don't know what it is it's a leadership development program that is predicated on you know Copy link
33:37 we are formed by powerful emotional experiences growing up zero through eight. Copy link
33:43 Those are sort of the songs that we like to play are basically from, Copy link
33:49 that's the origin story of the things that we do in life and how we react to Copy link
33:53 things, whether we're triggered or defensive or whatever, maybe joyful. Copy link
33:58 And so I was in this period after getting back together with Ariel and I Copy link
34:04 remembered I you know really wanted to be this grounded man and she seemed like she wanted right Copy link
34:09 I was thinking like who does she want to be a lot um and then you know it came to be like well what Copy link
34:15 do I want who do I want to be so I was really thinking about this concept of like man masculinity Copy link
34:22 and playing with that and then I got on a zoom call with uh my uh VP of sales at the time and he Copy link
34:29 was so present and grounded and not in like a woo-woo way, just like you could just feel him. Copy link
34:35 And I asked him like, what have you, what are you eating? Because I want that. And he just said Copy link
34:39 like, oh, I did this program. It's really fabulous. It changed my life. I'm like, great, sign me up. Copy link
34:44 And that's all it took. He didn't really give me any explanation. So when I did this program, Copy link
34:48 I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I was kind of checked out for the first couple days. Copy link
34:53 I couldn't remember people's stories. And then as it progressed, I really realized that a lot of Copy link
34:58 my stuff and how I show up in the world is sort of my own projection and it's being reflected back Copy link
35:05 to me so you know feeling like oh people don't want to talk to me well it's actually that I'm not Copy link
35:10 engaging with people so of course they're not talking to me it's like not up to them to speak Copy link
35:13 to me or create something it's like you know it really I have responsibility here as well Copy link
35:20 and so yeah just doing that course of the three months of the digging into and apply myself to Copy link
35:28 the program I it really changed my life I achieved so many results but it's not again about the Copy link
35:36 achievement necessarily as more as the where the come from is so my come from changed and I was Copy link
35:42 able to transform the relationship with my mom who I was estranged with for like 10 to 15 years Copy link
35:46 We didn't really talk much, you know, really made a lot of progress in the relationship with my dad, Ariel, finance and money. Copy link
35:55 I got promoted at work where there was no real promotion path. Copy link
35:58 And then all of a sudden, you know, it happened. Copy link
36:04 Physical fitness, too. Copy link
36:05 There's a lot of like breakthroughs I had around that. Copy link
36:09 And so, yeah, really the thought of the sort of like standard of excellence came long before is always in there. Copy link
36:16 but then I learned really how much more I could give and what does it mean to Copy link
36:22 actually do everything in your power to do something to be there for somebody to Copy link
36:26 show up and and it really again it's like how am I in this moment and that's Copy link
36:31 gonna give me the results that I that I'm looking for like if I want to be if I Copy link
36:38 want to be loved like by you know my community it's like I get to love my Copy link
36:42 community right um there's there's like a a point in between of course that's important is like how Copy link
36:48 you're showing up in that love that then people see you like oh i really want to be magnetized to Copy link
36:53 your whatever you're doing um but yeah just it's transformed my life and um it sounds like you know Copy link
37:01 it's making a big impact on yours too we're doing a podcast which a year ago i don't know we'd be Copy link
37:05 doing so absolutely yeah this i've been thinking about a podcast for a few years now you remember Copy link
37:12 mentioning it and i'm doing it as part of this program basically and yeah the program for me is Copy link
37:20 like for me seeing the the box that i am in right also seeing the breakthroughs and then this third Copy link
37:28 phase which is like designing um a life yeah that you want to have for these breakthroughs and and Copy link
37:36 actually doing it and more importantly for me like i have done things in the past that i like motivate Copy link
37:42 myself and then just just do it like a to-do list uh it's different though it's different i Copy link
37:50 i pay attention to the way of beings that i am right like how are you showing up yes am i loving Copy link
37:57 as I'm doing this or I'm like bitter and I get shit done which way of being I want to be and Copy link
38:07 I wasn't quite aware of that way of being like when I'm like in my mode of like doing Copy link
38:13 things and getting shit done I just forget about oh you're just aggressive at this point and then Copy link
38:19 I have this like meta awareness now which is it is interesting I mean meditation and things or Copy link
38:26 plant medicine has helped to some extent and this I tell my friends that this has opened like another Copy link
38:33 door yeah and keeps it open yes it keeps it open like a third dimension if like meditation Copy link
38:40 was one big door for a mere one dimension and then it was uh you know plant medicine the second one Copy link
38:49 this has been the third one really the kind of orthogonal to them totally I would agree with that Copy link
38:54 100%. I always feel like the framework of whatever we, you know, I have broken through and learned the work you have broken through is like, you know, where some other places like plant medicine can open the door to see others. Like this actually keeps the door open so you can return to it. I remember one of the biggest takeaways I had was just connecting to me. If I'm not connected to me, there's no way I can connect to other and then the world, right? There's no way to get there. And there was a point where I realized I had not been keeping the Copy link
39:24 promises that I made to myself. And I've been telling myself for years, oh, I'd buy my dream Copy link
39:30 car. And this is silly, of course, as a car, but still over the compounding of promising myself and Copy link
39:35 then actually becoming my dad and saying, no, someday, someday, and just keep putting it off. Copy link
39:40 And that's not to say that you should always jump out and just buy everything. It's not about buying, Copy link
39:44 but it's about like, if I declare something to be, whether it's going to be getting in great shape Copy link
39:50 or cooking my meals and not eating out, Copy link
39:53 or in this case, reward my hard work Copy link
39:57 of paying off my student debt or saving amount of money Copy link
40:01 and then treating myself to this car Copy link
40:03 that I've wanted for a long time. Copy link
40:06 I just, I didn't do it. Copy link
40:07 So when I graduated the program, I bought the car Copy link
40:09 and it was really a solidification of like, Copy link
40:11 I'm gonna keep my promises to myself Copy link
40:13 and I'm gonna be mindful of what I promise to myself Copy link
40:16 or what I commit to. Copy link
40:18 And that way, again, if I'm connected Copy link
40:20 with what's here, then I can connect out there. Copy link
40:23 And it takes commitment to do that. Copy link
40:24 I love that, yes. Copy link
40:26 It has this urgency element to it. Copy link
40:31 In a way, in Buddhism we have impermanence Copy link
40:34 that things will change all the time Copy link
40:36 and life is short and we all die. Copy link
40:41 And then this program, I feel like it has put it for me Copy link
40:44 in like some stuff are urgent. Copy link
40:47 If you wanna do it, do it now. Copy link
40:49 Like this podcast, I've been thinking about it for years. Copy link
40:52 Well, I'm just going to wait until it's perfect. Copy link
40:54 And then I'll just pull it off. Copy link
40:56 And I'm like, no, just do it. Copy link
40:58 I'm just doing it. Copy link
40:59 Was losing music or music path, was it tragedy or a gift now that you're looking at it? Copy link
41:10 I feel like I'm still moving through the emotional trauma of that. Copy link
41:17 So I think it's both. Copy link
41:20 It doesn't have to be like one or the other. Copy link
41:22 It's one and the other. Copy link
41:23 So it's both tragic and traumatic. Copy link
41:28 And also it was the first sort of like awakening, right? Copy link
41:34 And it was difficult. Copy link
41:36 It was both things. Copy link
41:36 I still feel the trauma and tragedy of it Copy link
41:41 and feel I wouldn't be here if it hadn't happened. Copy link
41:44 So it was important. Copy link
41:45 So I think that's probably true of most things Copy link
41:47 it's not this or that is this and that absolutely and what is present for you these days like what Copy link
41:58 is what are you working on what are you aspiring to be who is Alex let's say 6.0 is gonna be in Copy link
42:08 in a few years yeah a good question because I feel most of the things that felt unattainable Copy link
42:16 have been attained, which I feel is a greater lesson of just that there's always more stuff Copy link
42:21 if you want to seek it. Copy link
42:23 I suppose the only thing I haven't attained is just like having unbelievable amounts of Copy link
42:26 wealth and not working. Copy link
42:27 However, I know even if that was true, there would be other things and other challenges Copy link
42:33 and other potential things to chew on. Copy link
42:36 So that's not even in and of itself the end goal. Copy link
42:39 I feel like what I've been sitting with these days is how it's surrendering to practice. Copy link
42:49 And unlike practicing a musical instrument, which can become very habitual, I need to do this to succeed. Copy link
42:58 I find as an adult who's established and has a career with this, I don't need to do anything. Copy link
43:04 Like, I don't need to practice anything. Copy link
43:07 Like, you know, do I need to show up to my job? Copy link
43:10 You can even argue, no, I don't have to even show up. Copy link
43:12 I could just choose something different. Copy link
43:14 But I'm actually choosing like, yes, Copy link
43:16 I would like to continue to work. Copy link
43:19 Yes, I'd like to continue to succeed in that path, right? Copy link
43:23 So when I say surrender to practice, Copy link
43:26 it's now that I've gone through this arc Copy link
43:28 of exploring all these many modalities, Copy link
43:31 being confronted with if I want to integrate them Copy link
43:35 or continue for them to be sort of alive in my life, Copy link
43:39 that I get to choose to practice them. Copy link
43:41 And I feel a lot of frustration there and resistance Copy link
43:44 because I think, like many people, Copy link
43:48 I kind of want it to be like some sort of RPG game Copy link
43:54 where I just acquire a stat and the stat never leaves. Copy link
43:58 It's plus two, plus two, plus two, Copy link
44:00 and I'm just plus two every time. Copy link
44:02 But unfortunately in life, you gain things like plus two, and then with time, it goes back to zero. Copy link
44:09 And so to continue on, I mean, I think a great example of this is what I learned recently in what's called the elephant path in meditation, Copy link
44:18 where essentially there's this whole path where the monk is guiding the elephant, and the elephant is the mind, Copy link
44:25 and there's a monkey, which represents the monkey mind, distraction, and there's a rabbit. Copy link
44:29 There's all these allegories. Copy link
44:32 But essentially along the path, eventually, you know, the mind and the monk, the elephant and the monk are just hanging out on a cloud. Copy link
44:38 And eventually it's just the monk by himself. Copy link
44:41 But you can fall back a step. Copy link
44:42 So in any case, that's just a great illustration of anything that I've learned or experienced. Copy link
44:52 If I want to continue to open those arenas, I get to practice. Copy link
44:59 And I feel, again, just resistance. Copy link
45:01 oh, it can feel like a chore sometimes, like breath work, gratitude practice, meditation, Copy link
45:07 exercise, cooking, whatever it is, roasting coffee, like, oh, God, do I have to do that? Copy link
45:14 Going to bed early, you know, not drinking potentially, like, all of this kind of feeling Copy link
45:19 like a practice. So it's a funny thing, because I can look at it as like a struggle. But of course, Copy link
45:25 I can also just choose to be like, look at all these things I get to, but I still feel like, Copy link
45:29 oh I want to be a better breath worker, I'm a facilitator, oh that means that I need to Copy link
45:35 do these things versus like oh I get to practice like daily or I get to you know create a space Copy link
45:43 every month to come do breath work as a community. It's like there's just a it's kind of a I'm feeling Copy link
45:49 sort of the divine irony where I guess I want to just press play and just have it happen but it Copy link
45:53 It doesn't, your life just isn't like that. Copy link
45:56 I love that, yes. Copy link
45:59 This is so new to me, just to, given English is my second language, Copy link
46:04 to just realize there is a difference when I say I need to do this versus I get to do this. Copy link
46:10 The feeling of it, yeah. Copy link
46:11 Yeah, the feeling of it, one is I have a choice. Copy link
46:15 I'm making a conscious choice. Copy link
46:17 That's right. Copy link
46:17 I am sitting on the driver's seat of my life rather than being merely a passenger. Copy link
46:23 yeah obligation you have some obligations yeah it's like family duties i need to show up to my Copy link
46:29 thanksgiving dinner or my my family will disown me that there's like a sense that i will die Copy link
46:34 right absolutely yeah underneath i need to yeah i should yeah you know the wording matters like Copy link
46:42 here's yeah this is something that i'm realizing now as part of that program and i think our Copy link
46:48 friendship also i feel like over years you have been more and more intentional like not like Copy link
46:57 necessarily correcting me for everything when it wasn't time and now that i have like more Copy link
47:02 awareness hey by the way get to yeah yeah it's a different feeling in the body absolutely yeah Copy link
47:08 yeah get to it i'm like oh i get i have choice versus like need to like oh i need to do this Copy link
47:14 yeah and it's beautiful to have like friends like you and others so we can practice um because i Copy link
47:20 think the worst thing the thing that i've moved through recently and i'm still being aware of is Copy link
47:25 easy to fall into is just becoming a victim to my life like oh i have so many social commitments Copy link
47:32 like you know i feel victim to like i gotta go do this and then i do this and i've seen this person Copy link
47:38 that person there's no time for me you know now i it's it's all this sort of like drudgery versus Copy link
47:44 oh my god, like five years ago, I couldn't imagine having friends and a social calendar Copy link
47:50 that I feel like such beautiful community that I get to know. Copy link
47:55 And yeah, it's a phenomenal flip of the script. Copy link
48:00 I think that's a good place to end. Copy link
48:02 Any final thoughts or comments? Copy link
48:07 I think, yeah, the only thing I would, if I would say anything is, is wherever, wherever Copy link
48:15 there's a place that feels really painful, it's usually there's that other side of, of Copy link
48:20 like you're saying, the best thing that happened. Copy link
48:22 A lot of times it just needs to be experienced for the pain that it is before the perspective Copy link
48:27 can come in to be able to hold both of those things. Copy link
48:30 My musical journey falling apart and then being able to open the door to my life now Copy link
48:36 or like my relationship falling apart, then that led to the door opening to where I am here. Copy link
48:41 Like just developing a capacity to be able to hold versus react or push down or resist the discomfort. Copy link
48:53 You know, what I found is when I can hold the discomfort or the anxiety or whatever the feeling is, Copy link
48:58 that really broadens out my awareness to be like, oh, it's all these things at once. Copy link
49:04 I prefer it to be this way, but it is both positive and sometimes feels like heavy. Copy link
49:12 But, you know, it's okay to be able to say that it's both and not just one this or that. Copy link
49:17 Like this and that is this and that is, I think, really just a key to balancing how to show up fully in my life Copy link
49:30 and also recognize it doesn't have to be just one way. Copy link
49:34 amazing thank you so much alex and i would say alex bedner 5.0 yeah deeply grateful for our Copy link
49:43 friendship and thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us yeah thank you so much Copy link
49:49 thank you for spending this time with us del bedel means heart to heart and that's what this podcast Copy link
49:55 is about honest heartfelt conversations the ones we don't have often enough if something in this Copy link
50:03 conversation stayed with you i'd love to hear about it leave a comment on youtube tell me what Copy link
50:09 resonated who you would like to hear from or what you would have ever asked if you were sitting in Copy link
50:16 this room right here and if you would like more conversation like this one subscribe on youtube Copy link
50:23 or follow Del Vedel on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Copy link
50:26 It's the best way to make sure the next conversation finds you. Copy link
50:31 Until next time, take care of your heart and the hearts around you. Copy link
50:35 I'm Abbas. This was Del Vedel. Copy link